Hi all

Someone was moaning on the official MSFS forum that I hadn't included an stalls or spins in my "Pocket Rocket" review so I've made a video demonstrating a 1) clean stall and 2) stall in landing config.

Then some dramatic looking live weather which turned to serious IMC as I made an approach into Leon LELN

Once again - great looking weather graphics but very little associated turbulence. Boo.

Cheers

Captain Moore

 

8 hours ago, TrafficPilot said:

Hi all

Someone was moaning on the official MSFS forum that I hadn't included an stalls or spins in my "Pocket Rocket" review so I've made a video demonstrating a 1) clean stall and 2) stall in landing config.

 

 

 

 

Intentional spins are completely prohibited and only a few limited types of intentional stall are permitted on the real life Bonanza.

 

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

2 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Intentional spins are completely prohibited and only a few limited types of intentional stall are permitted on the real life Bonanza.

 

But what happens to the behaviour of the Bonanza if you get into an unintentional spin or stall?

8 minutes ago, Ron Attwood said:

But what happens to the behaviour of the Bonanza if you get into an unintentional spin or stall?

I think that is the focus of the new training with most GA in Australia.  No spins or stalls are trained in ppl,  CFIs must have a spin endorsement,  The focus is on avoiding them. Spin endorsements are recomended after a ppl but are done only in suitle aircraft (I saw one course in a Pitts for $1000)  Of course upset training of some kind is included in further licences.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by harrry

4 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

 

 

 

Intentional spins are completely prohibited and only a few limited types of intentional stall are permitted on the real life Bonanza.

 

Yes I do mention this in the video.

Any licensed Pilot who is not familiar with the operation, limitations and restrictions of their individual aircraft should not be flying the aircraft solo in the first place. Back to the P.O.H!

4 hours ago, harrry said:

The focus is on avoiding them. Spin endorsements are recomended after a ppl but are done only in suitle aircraft (I saw one course in a Pitts for $1000)  Of course upset training of some kind is included in further licences.

I would be interested in what the opinions of our CFIs are to the subject of hands-on spin training.  You can train to avoid spins all you want and "describe" the recovery techniques till you're blue in the face, but until you've actually experienced a spin in the aircraft you have no idea what a real spin is like!  I would state that if you don't experience it on a real flight, you might not recognize what is happening and be able to apply your training (actually cognitively associate what is happening and respond appropriately).

Case in point. In the midst of my PPL training I was out flying solo practicing all of my stalls (power-on, power-off, turning, climbing, the whole enchilada).  The very next day, one of my instructors went up with me to check my progress on all of these stall recovery maneuvers.  In the midst of creating a power-on, climbing, turning stall the aircraft suddenly flipped over and entered a spin (Cessna 152).  I did not recognize what it was.  It appeared as though we were going straight down but I didn't feel any strong forces - however, the earth was spinning round and round for some reason (but the aircraft just seemed to be sitting still).  My instructor shouted "You've put us in a spin!".  He applied opposite rudder, etc. and recovered fairly quickly.

Now I know exactly what a spin looks and feels like and would have no issue in beginning recovery.  The ironic thing is I had spent about an hour the previous day practicing the very thing that put us in that spin.  If it had happened to me then, I would probably be dead now.

Therefore, I will simply say this - if PPL training doesn't include actual spin experience you are not properly trained!  If your training program doesn't include it, please get it somewhere!

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by RandallR

Although intentional stalls and spins are not strictly allowed in the real aircraft, the point of a simulation is that you can practice these things in order to train for when it does happen accidently. 

The Turbo Bonanza mod WILL spin very easily, but you can't do it by being so gentle with the controls (no offense intended). You need to trim up a bit, then pull the stick back vigorously at or near the stall and as soon as the nose drops and one or other wing drops you need to apply FULL rudder in the direction of roll, then keep the stick back but centre it roll-wise and keep the rudder fully deflected. It will then enter and sustain a proper spin (not a spiral dive).

The spin will recover by centering or pushing the stick forward and applying FULL opposite rudder. All these movements have to be assertive as nearly all GA aircraft like the Bonanza are designed to mush stall. You have to really screw up to get an unintentional spin (or do the classic low and slow from base leg to final, but usually that will be an incipient spin with the nose sharply dropping into an irrecoverable dive (yikes!).

It will also stall more vigorously if (again) you are a bit more assertive with the controls.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by robert young

I'm not a big spin expert. But seems to me what shown in the video is not a  spin but rather wing over dive. I know a lot people define it as a spin, but to me is more like  incipient spin or spin entry. When I did spins for my CFI I had to demonstrate fully developed spin which consisted of at least 3 full rotation after entry. In spin IAS was actually low and VSI didn't thumbled down until recovery. For me personally the hardest part of the spin was recovery. That is when you brake the spin and start pulling airplane from a dive. There was fine line between time pulling nose to quickly risking accelerated speed or  pulling nose to slow risking puting airplane in deep dive redline.

It would be interesting thought to hear opinion of someone who actually does aerobatics!

1 hour ago, RandallR said:

Therefore, I will simply say this - if PPL training doesn't include actual spin experience you are not properly trained!  If your training program doesn't include it, please get it somewhere!

You did one spin and that makes you properly trained? I must be an expert on alot of things then....

Can you even claim this with a straight face?

PPL pilots like you and me are the least educated in the skies.... Unless you fly AVA or have undergone basic UPRT your training in spins is not sufficient and is not safe for you.

 

48 minutes ago, SAS443 said:

You did one spin and that makes you properly trained? I must be an expert on alot of things then....

 

That's the point - I wasn't trained for hands-on spin recovery.  Having accidentally gotten us into a spin really clarified for me that I probably would not have recognized the situation in time to recover on my own.

I was trained in the 70's.  I don't know what the training regimen is today, but I would hope that it at least includes videos of actual spins for students to see and good classroom/CFI discussion on technique.  In my case, all I had to go on was a page in my training manual and a couple of comments from an instructor - that's it.

No, I'm certainly not an expert, but I sure will never forget what it looked like and felt like.  Hopefully, if I were ever in that situation again I would respond appropriately without losing it.

Quote

 

Part of an article on AVweb (Spin Training? Yes) by CFI Rick Durden:

Part of the reason is for them to see how much altitude is lost in the first part of the spin and why it’s most important to recognize what is happening very early and start the recovery immediately so the spin never gets going. I want students to recognize that twisting, gut-churning roll and pitch-down that characterizes the very first stage of an incipient spin and have developed an emotional response to it. They should have it ingrained in them that, when the airplane begins that roll off and pitch down, it’s time for the ailerons to be centered, the rudder to go to the stop and the yoke to go forward, so there is no “What in the world is happening?” reaction delay that erases the chance of a recovering before ground impact.

 

 

3 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

I'm not a big spin expert. But seems to me what shown in the video is not a  spin but rather wing over dive. I know a lot people define it as a spin, but to me is more like  incipient spin or spin entry. When I did spins for my CFI I had to demonstrate fully developed spin which consisted of at least 3 full rotation after entry. In spin IAS was actually low and VSI didn't thumbled down until recovery. For me personally the hardest part of the spin was recovery. That is when you brake the spin and start pulling airplane from a dive. There was fine line between time pulling nose to quickly risking accelerated speed or  pulling nose to slow risking puting airplane in deep dive redline.

It would be interesting thought to hear opinion of someone who actually does aerobatics!

I don't do them now but used to. I agree the most stressful part of spinning is the recovery - especially when you can so easily hit VNE if you delay recovery after stick forward and opposite rudder. When I learned to glide back in the early 1980s spinning was I believe a compulsory part of solo training, as was a downwind landing. Some gliders get frightening close to VNE during the recovery. But whether in a powered or gliding aircraft, I quickly learned that getting a proper spin required some very assertive control. Most aircraft will not spin fully unless you vigorously make them do so. If you don't they tend to do a half rotation or extended wing drop, or they do a half spin followed by a steep spiral, which is the pattern of nearly all low and slow accidents, particularly in the pattern/circuit.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by robert young

9 hours ago, Ron Attwood said:

But what happens to the behaviour of the Bonanza if you get into an unintentional spin or stall?

You probably die. 

5 hours ago, RandallR said:

I would be interested in what the opinions of our CFIs are to the subject of hands-on spin training.  You can train to avoid spins all you want and "describe" the recovery techniques till you're blue in the face, but until you've actually experienced a spin in the aircraft you have no idea what a real spin is like!  I would state that if you don't experience it on a real flight, you might not recognize what is happening and be able to apply your training (actually cognitively associate what is happening and respond appropriately).

Case in point. In the midst of my PPL training I was out flying solo practicing all of my stalls (power-on, power-off, turning, climbing, the whole enchilada).  The very next day, one of my instructors went up with me to check my progress on all of these stall recovery maneuvers.  In the midst of creating a power-on, climbing, turning stall the aircraft suddenly flipped over and entered a spin (Cessna 152).  I did not recognize what it was.  It appeared as though we were going straight down but I didn't feel any strong forces - however, the earth was spinning round and round for some reason (but the aircraft just seemed to be sitting still).  My instructor shouted "You've put us in a spin!".  He applied opposite rudder, etc. and recovered fairly quickly.

Now I know exactly what a spin looks and feels like and would have no issue in beginning recovery.  The ironic thing is I had spent about an hour the previous day practicing the very thing that put us in that spin.  If it had happened to me then, I would probably be dead now.

Therefore, I will simply say this - if PPL training doesn't include actual spin experience you are not properly trained!  If your training program doesn't include it, please get it somewhere!

Could not agree more. 

15 hours ago, Ron Attwood said:

But what happens to the behaviour of the Bonanza if you get into an unintentional spin or stall?

If it is a V tail and you exit too late and exceed VNE the tail likely comes off.

The infamous structural issues with V Tail Bonanza's were apparently almost always because VNE was exceeded due to pilot error.