2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

Extra infrastructure is being used though for streaming.  That's more servers that are needed to stream the data.  Those servers cost money.  And people are needed to maintain those servers.  Black Shark also costs Microsoft/Asobo money to convert the 2D satellite data into 3D houses/buildings.  None of that is free and it costs money.

If such a service were released for X-Plane or P3D, there is a good chance you would have to pay extra for such a service.

it's 3 peanuts in a peanut farm. The data is very heavily compressed BEFORE it's streamed (hence they aren't compressing in real-time because they have a static unchanging dataset), look at your data usage stats in the game. Most sites have the problem where the data changes so they have to use not only the HTTP compression but also ZIP or MPEG4 or similar while the server is running on the same network of servers they are streaming with. Since the data is static and only needs updating occasionally, it makes it dirt cheap to stream. They also don't have the issue Youtube or other sites have of taking uploads and needing CPU power to down-convert or compress it, since they are able to use static files.

If you do the math, even a very heavy user in the sim is maxing out at about the equivalent of downloading 1-2 large PC games per month. Someone on the XBOX subscription might be downloading 5+ games per month, so it's not even an issue. If they were worried about bandwidth, they can reduce it a lot by getting rid of the update bugs causing people to re-download the game. In many cases, a single update of the game is more bandwidth then you playing the game for a month.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by Alpine Scenery

1 hour ago, mrueedi said:

Check e.g. this link:

SDK Documentation (flightsimulator.com)

You can also enter OSM in the search box...

Thanks, as I said, I've learned something new today. Not sure why they didn't mention it in their Insider videos.

Kind regards, michael

Coincidentally, I have been thinking of posting something to the effect: "IS MICROSOFT SETTING US UP FOR THE BIG FALL?"  I am wondering if they are setting the hook with all of this wonderful eye candy, especially for GA VFR flyers? 

I am expecting that someday, they will expect a monthly fee for all of the services, world updates and cloud storage and streaming.  What they have created is nothing short of breathtaking.  I for one would consider a future monthly fee ... but would have to wait and see.

They may, but they don't need it due to the marketplace, they are making plenty. Some people buy everything.

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by Alpine Scenery

Isn't this the first and only product at this time to be constantly on as far as a game or simulator goes? Constantly connected to the internet, except for the hiccups at times? I wouldn't understand it at all, but would be interesting to see the math behind it. The subscription model has been a part of the speculation since it was announced. Remember all the " I guarantee it will be a subscription based service", and it isn't, unless you use Game Pass, which is your choice. But most people here are simmers and not general gaming people, I guess? And I know some people that bought MSFS outright, usually the Premium Deluxe version, but also pay for the Game Pass for others games on both PC and X-Box. Most are families that I know, with people interested in PC and X-Box other games the Game Pass offers.

A lot of choices people! And one is not to choose any of them, and not use MSFS. Your the customer, you make the choice. I think they are going to make a ton from the MarketPlace over time, both PC and X-Box. And they just released their first payware aircraft, and I am sure scenery at some point, of many in the future?

Future is gonna be interesting, one way or the other!

1 hour ago, in2tech said:

Isn't this the first and only product at this time to be constantly on as far as a game or simulator goes?

You mean other than the other 200+ MMO type games and numerous others I cannot name off the top of my head.
First games to be only online were way back in the late 1990's, this method certainly isn't new.

Streaming this level of detail is somewhat different, but the compression techniques are very advanced for static data. Graphics are very easily compressed compared to their native sizes.

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by Alpine Scenery

1 hour ago, Alpine Scenery said:

You mean other than the other 200+ MMO type games and numerous others I cannot name off the top of my head.
First games to be only online were way back in the late 1990's, this method certainly isn't new.

Streaming this level of detail is somewhat different, but the compression techniques are very advanced for static data. Graphics are very easily compressed compared to their native sizes.

I meant streaming the world scenery? 

5 hours ago, PDX Flyer said:

 

I am expecting that someday, they will expect a monthly fee for all of the services, world updates and cloud storage and streaming. 

In other words game pass.   That is exactly how it will likely work with Xbox. A monthly game pass sub and then buy things like the premium pack as DLC.

For PC there is a lot of buyer resistance to pay per month though games like EVE online and World of Warcraft always had that model. The PC version may eventually be game pass only - but hopefully those of us with legacy purchased versions will be grandfathered in and avoid the monthly fee.

 

I suspect that with our singular focus on simulation we may be missing the forest for the trees.

I wonder, if the streaming that Microsoft is doing is really all that much more strenuous than what many companies already plan to do with Stadia and other potential up-and-coming 4K streaming game services?

MSFS may simply be the Microsoft's prototype of their infrastructure to compete with Google and others in this arena. 

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by HiFlyer

Here I am still flying P3D occasionally but less than before. I am waiting for v5.2 which should bring an updated EA.

Since 2 days I found the reason for my MSFS framerate reduction over time (Prosim WASM file) and now I can fly with good franerate. 
If coarse not everything of my home cockpit is working and the controls are over sensitive but at least I can fly .

As I have photoscenery + custom AG + POIs and use modified shaders my P3D looks different from the stock P3D and indeed I costed perhaps € 1500 or more on Addons (beside Prosim). Than you see a complete different outside world.

For homecockpit builders P3D is much more enhanced regarding the SDK and it is more stable at this moment. Surely all the years P3D is around is an advantage over MSFS which exists less than a year.

MSFS has a lot for free as all photoreal scenery is for free where I have paid a lot of money to have it in P3D. That is a big advantage. And when Asobo makes it DX12 performance will rise for those with fast graphics cards. 

Looking at the clouds : the structure of the multiple cloud layers in MSFS look way better than P3D with EA at this moment. As I use 2x 4K 43” the downside is that in MSFS I can see some cloud pixelation where there is none in P3D. Imho if the cloud surface from the P3D EA cloud surface would be put onto MSFS clouds they would be looking even better.

And flat runways at a lot of (De Luxe) airports would be very welcome in MSFS.

Regarding the costs : every 2 years € 200 is for the regular P3D. You can also buy the Academic version for $ 60. So comparing the $ 60 MSFS to the $ 200 P3D is not entirely correct.

Also I remember Asobo saying that in the future, beside the free updates, there would be payware updates. I can imagine that at a given time you will have to pay for the latest satellite scenery. People flying perhaps 3-4 times in a month might find $ 5 pm enough where others flying multiple times per week find $ 10 pm not an issue.

Last remark : I hope that MSFS will be more enhanced for the PC version than the XBox version. If they remain the same overall than not all PC potentional would be used.

For the moment I have both P3Dv5 and MSFS installed. Depending on the future developments I might not be buying P3Dv6 anymore ....

As with P3D I now also do not have CTD’s with MSFS, so that is a good thing.

Let’s see what the coming year will bring us .... ✈️

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by GSalden

41 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

I suspect that with our singular focus on simulation we may be missing the forest for the trees.

Correct, I can start the Windows 10 map app and stream global aerial images all day long. For free. Or do the same with a browser and browse the globe on the bing map webpage. I even doubt, that MSFS stresses the bing map tile servers more than many of the other tile consuming applications which often are entirely free.

I will go with the fact that nothing is for free.  Buy this product and get free shipping!   Horse hockey.   The products selling price very likely has the average shipping costs calculated and built in.  MSFS and its 3 different tiers were likely calculated as to how much would be selling at each tier, and a percentage of the selling price probably accounts for the streaming servers and bing costs among many other things.  Im guessing that future costs could be supplemented by addon dlc.  No doubt this was planned for long long ago when the project was born and especially with a 10 year commitment statement else the project would be financially ruined rather quickly if the launch wasnt very successful.  Besides, who would pay for streaming photogrammetry right now that looks like melted candles half the time.  

1 hour ago, HiFlyer said:

I suspect that with our singular focus on simulation we may be missing the forest for the trees.

I wonder, if the streaming that Microsoft is doing is really all that much more strenuous than what many companies already plan to do with Stadia and other potential up-and-coming 4K streaming game services?

MSFS may simply be the Microsoft's prototype of their infrastructure to compete with Google and others in this arena. 

MFS is a remarkable  technical achievement in integration but not a Copernican revolution. And the implementation is still... perfectible (but aren't we all ?).

The "satellite " thing in the title  is a bit of a fluff. The reality is that MS uses its Azure cloud to stream enhanced images grafted on a game engine located with the client. 

MS has a powerful cloud machinery but is not the only player in the field not even the largest (Amazon, Google etc. Even Alibaba 😄.). 

Would I pay for subscription ? yes, if that would be the condition to have a flight simulator. 

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by Dominique_K

I don't think the subscription model will happen for a long time, if it ever does. At the point they start charging a subscription, it would likely mean third-party addon sales are declining rapidly. They are making more money off 3PD addons even with their cut then they could make off a subscription. The addons are making a significant amount of money. Charging a monthly subscription just for the streaming would cut the # of users by a significant amount reducing the addon sales.

Right now their goal is simple, get as many people playing and buying the game as possible, and that is additional revenue from addons as well. Even though some are buying the scenery from other sites initially, it's a small amount overall, most are using the marketplace. Furthermore, the planes are primarily being sold on the marketplace, and this is a decent amount of money.

 

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by Alpine Scenery

Well, here goes.

I would actually be quite prepared to pay maybe 10 quid a month for a GUARANTEED and well maintained service. For that I would expect the option of either much better converted photogrammetry models, or better still, good quality 3d modelling available as an option in the areas where they do supply PG. I wouldn't (don't) pay for streaming TV channels, music subscriptions, mobile phone contracts etc as they have no appeal or function for me, but I do spend a lot of time in this sim, and anticipate continuing to do so.

If they can just avoid scr*wing it up too much, it would be money well spent as far as I personally am concerned.

What would be even better would be if this could be seriously enhanced as a world sim, to the point of proper inclusion of such features as roads and rail. Imagine a sim based on MSFS but including the functionality of the likes of a truck simulator, a rail simulator etc. Fly in your 747 to KSFO, then pilot your H135 down to Monterey, get in your Mustang and drive down the coast highway to LA then get on an Amtrak to Chicago. All in a hyper-realistic world environment. Don't see any reason why that's not possible, technically.

Bring it on!