Just flight BAe 146

[jon b 2,047]

The much anticipated (by me at least) BAe 146 from Just Flight has just released for XP.

I have the P3D version and its cracking, I expect the XP version to be better still. 

I'm downloading now.

[jarmstro 2,402]

Not for me yet. Default FMC. I believe it's going to be updated but when?

[Torsen 495]

Yap same feeling here. I love it and very nice in p3d but the fmc is still not what I would expect in an addon in that price range. And default fmc in xp is a turn off yes. A custom one is announced but lets wait and see. Until then waiting... 

Cheers T.

[Tailwinds 52]

I agree, I was shocked to hear just now when watching a product review that the FMC is the Xplane default. You've got to be kidding me! It was mentioned that the FMC will be implemented but goodness knows when. I'm tired of paying for products with promises of things to come. I'm done with all that now.

This product should have come with it's own FMC from day one. I expect things like bugs that may crop up during early release but having part of it's own system operations not there and having to use default Xplane is unforgivable. Another rushed product to get out of the door. Give us yer money now and we'll give you the rest later.

[Chock 17,769]

 

[karlz 37]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

 

That is too funny, spot on!   

[jarmstro 2,402]

22 hours ago, Torsen said:

Yap same feeling here. I love it and very nice in p3d but the fmc is still not what I would expect in an addon in that price range. And default fmc in xp is a turn off yes. A custom one is announced but lets wait and see. Until then waiting... 

Cheers T.

I reckon they must be struggling with it. If it was the case that a custom FMC was only a month or two away they would have waited before releasing it? It's going to be a very long wait imo.

Edited April 29, 2021 by jarmstro

[jon b 2,047]

I think it's important to note that version of the 146 simulated is an early 1980's jet and flight deck design, with the electromechanical engine instruments, and as such would not have left the factory with an FMC. Pictures you may see of the older 146s with mechanical engine instruments and FMCs would have been retrofitted. 

The LED engine instruments were not introduced until 1990 at which point the FMC was becoming more common.

A lot of the British aircraft flying during the 80's and 90's for airlines such as Loganair, AirUK, and Jersey/British European had no FMC fitted, I know because I jumpseated on a few, and now work with the guys who used to fly them.

This jet is from an era of when proper pilotage skills were required and navigation was by paper airways charts and manually tuning ground based beacons and performance obtained from flip books . There were no 2D ,3D RNAV/GPS/PBN or what ever they're called approaches and flights were only short 1-2 hour regional hops, there was really no need of an FMC.

This 146 represents a fantastic time in aviation and piloting full of character and characters ,before the industry was flooded by politically correct identical  kids wearing sunglasses who cant fly but can type 80 words a minute and quote the ops manual while follow a pink string.

I'm not bothered what FMC this aircraft has as the only thing I'll be doing with the FMC is turning it off. Personally I'm not getting too excited about something that probably shouldn't be in the flight deck anyway and would rather see it's space used for the audio control panels and ADF tuners as they were on the original aircraft.

However for those wanting an accurate retrofitted FMC I believe the work to create one has been given to a 3rd party who specializes in these things so it should be good. JF I think have said they will add the RJ variants later at which point the FMCs become relevant.

From a purely personal perspective I'd much rather the aircraft was released as is with the default FMC as a short term stop gap allowing those of us who want to fly the aircraft as it was originally designed to do so, rather than waiting.

I recognise though I might be in in an extreme minority here, both in that view and in my ability to use a VOR  😉😁

 

[Chock 17,769]

3 hours ago, jon b said:

This 146 represents a fantastic time in aviation and piloting full of character and characters ,before the industry was flooded by politically correct identical  kids wearing sunglasses who cant fly but can type 80 words a minute and quote the ops manual while follow a pink string.

Whilst this is true and being older myself I tend to agree with you on these points, the more important point is that however they want to spin it, saying 'For those of you who prefer to use a custom-coded FMC we can confirm that one is currently being developed by Javier Cortés (FJCC) for integration into the 146 as soon as possible after release' as it does in the product blurb on the Just Flight website, this is still marketing-speak for 'we've not finished it, and hopefully we'll get around to it, but in the meantime please can we have your money?'.

Now even this would fine if they label the thing as 'early access' so a potential customer is more aware of the inherent possibility of thing maybe not turning out perfect or perhaps taking a while to get there, but they've not done that, and so 55 quid for something which isn't finished is a bit cheeky.

I don't think it's exactly a secret that over the years I've been a bit of a champion for Just Flight - and at times almost a lone voice in sticking up for them where some products were concerned, so I feel you on that score - but this doesn't mean I find them beyond reproach, nor unworthy of some criticism in going for the half-@rsed release method. We've seen what their 'jam tomorrow' promises led to with Traffic Global, which in fairness was sold as Early Access, but it still took them about two and a half years to get it out of that status on the product page, so in that instance I was somewhat measured in my criticism of their production timetable for that one. Not always, but at least I knew what I had signed up for.

More prescient of this, is that since there are more 'children of the magenta line' these days into flight simming, at 55 quid this is not what I'd call a 'lite sim' price tag and so it would seem to me that the more serious price tag would warrant a more serious FMC. Particularly when we consider this product is the same cost as the Majestic Dash 8, which fulfils a broadly similar sort of role as a commercial aeroplane and is possibly the best flight sim airliner there is with no such promises of jam tomorrow. Likewise, you can get the iFly 737 NG for about that price as well, and again this is a vastly more complete treatment of the real thing.

In the interim, whilst it is true that one can simply ignore the FMC and fly it 'as god intended' so to speak, and if buyers want that then fair enough, but in that case I think it would have perhaps been better to offer it in that guise and promise the more complete inclusion of a more realistic upgrade at a later date. There are enough half-@rsed efforts for MSFS without developers following the trend in other sims which are not forced into being that way through a lack of an SDK.

I'm not wishing to put people off this thing, but I do think Just Flight could be a bit more up front about the possibilities of things taking time on occasion, and make this a bit clearer in regard to how the product blurb addresses such potential delays. I'm sure the thing is great in so far as the features it does possess, but it is as well to be aware of this concern if one is indeed the kind of pilot who likes to follow a magenta line and who wouldn't know how to fly a DME Arc manually if their life depended on it, which indeed it could back when the 146 was rolling off the production line.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Chock

[mjrhealth 820]

I suppose they dont deserve to be paid for there efforts. Far to much complaining these days.

[Dereksmalls 36]

2 hours ago, Chock said:

Whilst this is true and being older myself I tend to agree with you on these points, the more important point is that however they want to spin it, saying 'For those of you who prefer to use a custom-coded FMC we can confirm that one is currently being developed by Javier Cortés (FJCC) for integration into the 146 as soon as possible after release' as it does in the product blurb on the Just Flight website, this is still marketing-speak for 'we've not finished it, and hopefully we'll get around to it, but in the meantime please can we have your money?'.

Now even this would fine if they label the thing as 'early access' so a potential customer is more aware of the inherent possibility of thing maybe not turning out perfect or perhaps taking a while to get there, but they've not done that, and so 55 quid for something which isn't finished is a bit cheeky.

I don't think it's exactly a secret that over the years I've been a bit of a champion for Just Flight - and at times almost a lone voice in sticking up for them where some products were concerned, so I feel you on that score - but this doesn't mean I find them beyond reproach, nor unworthy of some criticism in going for the half-@rsed release method. We've seen what their 'jam tomorrow' promises led to with Traffic Global, which in fairness was sold as Early Access, but it still took them about two and a half years to get it out of that status on the product page, so in that instance I was somewhat measured in my criticism of their production timetable for that one. Not always, but at least I knew what I had signed up for.

More prescient of this, is that since there are more 'children of the magenta line' these days into flight simming, at 55 quid this is not what I'd call a 'lite sim' price tag and so it would seem to me that the more serious price tag would warrant a more serious FMC. Particularly when we consider this product is the same cost as the Majestic Dash 8, which fulfils a broadly similar sort of role as a commercial aeroplane and is possibly the best flight sim airliner there is with no such promises of jam tomorrow. Likewise, you can get the iFly 737 NG for about that price as well, and again this is a vastly more complete treatment of the real thing.

In the interim, whilst it is true that one can simply ignore the FMC and fly it 'as god intended' so to speak, and if buyers want that then fair enough, but in that case I think it would have perhaps been better to offer it in that guise and promise the more complete inclusion of a more realistic upgrade at a later date. There are enough half-@rsed efforts for MSFS without developers following the trend in other sims which are not forced into being that way through a lack of an SDK.

I'm not wishing to put people off this thing, but I do think Just Flight could be a bit more up front about the possibilities of things taking time on occasion, and make this a bit clearer in regard to how the product blurb addresses such potential delays. I'm sure the thing is great in so far as the features it does possess, but it is as well to be aware of this concern if one is indeed the kind of pilot who likes to follow a magenta line and who wouldn't know how to fly a DME Arc manually if their life depended on it, which indeed it could back when the 146 was rolling off the production line.

Worth clarifying the gestation of this one. 

It was never intended to have a custom FMC, on the basis that the default one in X-Plane was (based on customer feedback) more than adequate - given the real aircraft didn't ship with one. 

However, once we announced the project and started previewing it, we received a load more (contradictory) feedback saying that a custom FMC was a necessity. So, "in response to popular demand" (as they say) we commissioned an FMC and this is in progress now. It will be finished soon (weeks, rather than months or years) and offered as a free add-on for Feedback Group 2. Meanwhile, to satisfy Feedback Group 1, we have released the '146 - As Nature Intended' version. This is finished and, as far as we are concerned, it is a very faithful representation of the aircraft. It certainly isn't 'early access', or, as seems to be the mot du jour, 'a cash grab'. It's complete and any minor bugs that appear will be addressed asap - as normal. 

Hopefully this approach will satisfy both groups. 

[Chock 17,769]

7 minutes ago, Dereksmalls said:

Worth clarifying the gestation of this one. 

It was never intended to have a custom FMC, on the basis that the default one in X-Plane was (based on customer feedback) more than adequate - given the real aircraft didn't ship with one. 

However, once we announced the project and started previewing it, we received a load more (contradictory) feedback saying that a custom FMC was a necessity. So, "in response to popular demand" (as they say) we commissioned an FMC and this is in progress now. It will be finished soon (weeks, rather than months or years) and offered as a free add-on for Feedback Group 2. Meanwhile, to satisfy Feedback Group 1, we have released the '146 - As Nature Intended' version. This is finished and, as far as we are concerned, it is a very faithful representation of the aircraft. It certainly isn't 'early access', or, as seems to be the mot du jour, 'a cash grab'. It's complete and any minor bugs that appear will be addressed asap - as normal. 

Hopefully this approach will satisfy both groups. 

Well, I've not said it's a cash grab, far from it, I did say it's probably great in every other respect and simply pointed out that it is undeniably not as complete as is mentioned in the description. As I say, I'm not intending to put anyone off buying it, but if, as intimated in that description, it's going to get a more complete FMC in short order, then why would they simply not wait for that to occur? And if not, it makes me curious as to know why this was not the case.

[jon b 2,047]

2 hours ago, Chock said:

In the interim, whilst it is true that one can simply ignore the FMC and fly it 'as god intended' so to speak, and if buyers want that then fair enough, but in that case I think it would have perhaps been better to offer it in that guise and promise the more complete inclusion of a more realistic upgrade at a later date.

As always, I tend to agree with all you’ve said, Particularly this bit. The options around FMCs would not  be up for debate if the aircraft was released as an historically accurate early 80’s aircraft with the audio panel and tuning boxes where the FMCs were to be later installed. Allowing the paid option to upgrade the base package to upgraded avionics and Avro RJ variants later.

However I suspect by doing so this early release would not have proved as popular to those used to navigating by FMC so I suppose it would make more financial sense to offer an FMCat this stage.

In this instance it’s quite a complicated and interesting story , but it’s certainly not a case of JF trying to pull a fast one or anything along those lines. The story of what ultimately was just a case of balancing options and a late decision to include a custom FMC can be read on the .org , where Dan from Thranda  gives a detailed explanation of their part in the development and thoughts on the FMC. It’s a very interesting read.

The JF 146 on both platforms is a really stunning  aircraft , and very pleasant to fly.

Without wanting to single out other developers aircraft by name, I think the depth of simulation, the amount of work that’s gone into it, and the quality of the experience the 146 is really well priced compared to others.

 

[Chock 17,769]

I certainly don't think Just Flight are trying to pull a fast one. I know quite a few of them from having met them at their Flight Sim show in the UK and through contact over the years for reviews and such. I wouldn't want people to get that impression since it is certainly not my intent, I'm just not a fan of the 'we promise we'll finish it later' approach to software releases these days.

It has become the norm in many respects, whereas can you imagine if that was the case for any other business? 'Yeah I know your new car is supposed to have a back seat, but we promise, it's coming and in the meantime it doesn't stop you from driving it, or carrying passengers so long as they sit on a cushion. And yeah I know it doesn't have a speedometer yet, but that's coming soon as well, and in any case, if you follow the other cars and match their speed, you can assume you're doing 30 mph, right?' 🤣

[jarmstro 2,402]

If the plane is intended to replicate older models before they were retro fitted with an FMC then why include the default XP FMC at all? Or at least include an option to omit it? Clearly this isn't the case and as the FMC is fundamental to the model the default one just isn't good enough.