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Rob_Ainscough

BitCoin crypto mania

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3 minutes ago, Chock said:

Not really. Same as I don't need to own a slave to know slavery is not a defensible thing to indulge in. And no, I'm not suggesting it is as bad as slavery, I am merely pointing out that you don't actually need have a horse in a race to observe results of a horserace, or have an opinion on it.

I 100% agree. You don't. But I bet that those who are against it don't have any and those who are not, do. Rule of thumb sort of thing. Nothing is 100% 😉 

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Just now, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

I 100% agree. You don't. But I bet that those who are against it don't have any and those who are not, do. Rule of thumb sort of thing. Nothing is 100% 😉 

That's probably true, you're almost certainly correct in that, but then again I daresay there weren't many slave owners who argued against slavery, so there is always an element of bias from people with a vested interest in any subject.


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Just now, Chock said:

That's probably true, you're almost certainly correct in that, but then again I daresay there weren't many slave owners who argued against slavery, so there is always an element of bias from people with a vested interest in any subject.

But that argument holds water if we agree that owning Bitcoin is the same as owning slaves. I do not. You may. It's a free world (at least where you and me live). I respect your opinion. I may be wrong. I don't know. All I know for sure is that I have 1000% more on my investment that I had about 4 years ago. And if I loose it all I won't shed one tear.

I rest my case. 

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1 hour ago, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

I don't care

Sounds like you do?  But you still didn’t tell me what it’s value is?

I get you want to cash in or out and when the panic starts there is no regulatory infrastructure to provide you with any secure and timely means to cash out.  So there is definitely a big difference in investment risk.

There isn’t enough planetary energy production to make BitCoin sustainable.

Cheers Rob

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Just now, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

But that argument holds water if we agree that owning Bitcoin is the same as owning slaves. I do not. You may. It's a free world (at least where you and me live). I respect your opinion. I may be wrong. I don't know. All I know for sure is that I have 1000% more on my investment that I had about 4 years ago. And if I loose it all I won't shed one tear.

I rest my case. 

I'm not in any way suggesting it is the equivalent of owning slaves, I merely used that as an example of a potentially touchy subject which people very definitely have opinions about, and some of those opinions have their basis in people defending something not because there was a justifiable reason for it, but because they had a reason to support it based on their own personal gain.

You could substitute 'slavery' for 'eating meat' or 'disliking contact sports' or whatever you like in terms of subject. By way of example, I have no defence for not being a vegetarian, other than to somewhat feebly say 'I like bacon'. I could possibly argue that we as humans have incisor teeth which appear to be designed for eating more than carrots, but we clearly can survive by not eating meat and so therefore my preference for eating meat is not especially defensible from a moral standpoint, but I still have that selfish reason to eat burgers etc. 

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1 minute ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Sounds like you do?  But you still didn’t tell me what it’s value is?

I get you want to cash in or out and when the panic starts there is no regulatory infrastructure to provide you with any secure and timely means to cash out.  So there is definitely a big difference in investment risk.

There isn’t enough planetary energy production to make BitCoin sustainable.

Cheers Rob

No, I really don't. I intend to hold it for a couple of more years and if it goes to zero, so be it and if it goes to a million, great too. Stocks can plummet over night also, they did before, people were jumping from the buildings, remember. 

I don't have enough knowledge to argue about sustainability, so you may be right there. On the other hand a lot of sources of energy are not sustainable, like oil and stuff, and we all know how many stocks are connected to that filed.

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18 minutes ago, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

But I bet that those who are against it don't have any and those who are not, do. Rule of thumb sort of thing. Nothing is 100% 😉 

Circular logic here.

If I think something is a bad bet, I don't go out and buy some just so I can prove my point.  It is the case that I don't have any because I'm against it, not that I'm against it because I don't have any.

And the term "investment" is being misused here...placing bets on something based on other than its intrinsic value is gambling, not investing.  And yes, many (most) stocks right now are in gambling territory as well.  My recent favorite is Home Deli International Inc, a single-store delicatessen in NJ that has had annual revenue of ~$75,000, but whose (OTC) market cap as of a couple weeks ago was around $100 million.  It's insane...no, belay that, people are insane.

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9 minutes ago, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

On the other hand a lot of sources of energy are not sustainable, like oil and stuff, and we all know how many stocks are connected to that filed.

This is a fair point and it sort of relates to what I said, in that we know aeroplane exhausts bugger up the planet, and we could for the most part choose to not go on a holiday jet plane to Spain or wherever, or not fly recreationally for that matter, after all, even a glider is towed or winched into the air. But I'm still going to do it because I'm not so much of a tree-hugger as I am selfish in liking aeroplanes and sunshine.

Thus we are in a glass house picking up a stone and getting ready to throw it if we start complaining at others for their own preferences in this regard and it's only maybe full-on Jainists who'd be able to look down on us.

Edited by Chock
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3 minutes ago, Chock said:

but I still have that selfish reason to eat burgers etc. 

Sure. My only argument all along was that those who have it are not against it and those who don't, are. I never said it's a good thing for a humanity, sustainable, positive thing, that you should invest, that numerous people won't loose a lot of money, etc. I'm just reacting to the "demonization" of crypto. I said a couple of times that I'm on your side considering the GPU situation. 

Look, all I'm saying is, it's not such a terrible thing that some are portraying it. It's a lot similar as some other more "main stream" things like stocks, futures, etc. A lot of things nowadays are virtual, in the cloud, binary,... and have value. Oh, man, I put too much time into this. Believe what you want. We all have the right to our own opinion and we all have right to be wrong. Or right 🙂 Good night!

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2 hours ago, Afterburner said:

Over time, the people who are taking part in the cryptocurrency frenzy may ask themselves "what have I actually paid for" - and the answer is just bits and bytes with no collateral, nothing of value to back it up.

The same is true of virtually all currencies that exist, including the US Dollar.  They are only valuable because you, me, and hundreds of millions (or many more) other people trust in them to be valuable.  My dollars are only good because I can use them to purchase a computer, or hire someone to do some work on my house or car.

I actually like the idea of non-governmental currencies, because I agree with Thomas Jefferson when he said "that government is best which governs least".  Although there seems to be considerable debate over who actually said it, I still agree with the concept.  So to me, anything that can cause government to cease doing things they're already doing is a good thing.  Well, generally speaking anyway, there are many things that if government ceased doing them, it would be really bad.

But until trade using Bitcoin (or whatever crypto is your personal favorite) becomes common, normal, even a standard, it's on shaky ground.  I can pop into a 7-11 and buy a pack of smokes using US Dollars, but I can't say the same for crypto.  It's a totally new idea to the whole planet, and anyone who claims to know how it plays out in the long run is full of it, because nobody does.

So while it annoys the word not allowed out of me that I can't find a GPU that I want/need because of their value in creating crypto, I don't object to the very existence of crypto, and hope it becomes a standard, perhaps even a global one.  Imagine a world where money is no longer controlled by governments, and virtually everybody uses the same "fake" currency instead.  That sounds good to me!

Like I said, virtually all currencies have value only because the people who use them on a day to day basis collectively agree that it/they have value.  In that way crypto is no different from what we traditionally think of as "money".  I just can't use it to buy or sell anything.  Yet.  (With limited exceptions.)

As far as Bill's objection to the amount of energy used, what we need to do is just build a buttload of nuclear production facilities, and modern ones are as safe as the tap water in my hometown of Tampa, FL.  By doing so, the question of using "too much" energy becomes moot, but the very word "nuclear" still scares the word not allowed out of too many people, even though they're wrong, for this to happen any time soon.

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4 minutes ago, KevyKevTPA said:

But until trade using Bitcoin (or whatever crypto is your personal favorite) becomes common, normal, even a standard, it's on shaky ground.  I can pop into a 7-11 and buy a pack of smokes using US Dollars, but I can't say the same for crypto.  It's a totally new idea to the whole planet, and anyone who claims to know how it plays out in the long run is full of it, because nobody does.

Well, I'm from Slovenia, and we embraced crypto in a big way... one of the major exchanges originated here, Bitstamp, and we actually have a whole "shopping center/city" where crypto is accepted... BTC City... https://www.btc.si/en/bitcoin-city/. Maybe it's a fluke, maybe it's the future. Nobody really knows. I for sure don't.

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1 hour ago, Tomaz Drnovsek said:

No, I really don't.

Well you should since you’re invested in it ... the only value BitCoin has is if you convince others it has value ... which based on your comments is exactly what you’re doing.

Hard currency is not the same value concept, except in countries where they just print money  when they want more and in those situations they actually reduce the value of the currency the more they print. 
 

By definition of how BitCoins are generated you couldn’t build enough nuclear power plants even if you took up every inch of planetary space.  And safety of the power plant isnt the problem, disposal of highly radioactive material is the problem.  Underground or at the bottom of the sea.  Do you know how it cost to build a safe nuclear power plant?  

Not to mention why?  We already have currency that doesn’t require massive amounts of energy resources.  The people that enjoy BitCoin is because it can’t be traced ... which eludes to my prior comment of locating the money trail in order to find the truth.  BitCoin is another way the hide the Truth.

Cheers, Rob

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29 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Well you should since you’re invested in it ... the only value BitCoin has is if you convince others it has value ... which based on your comments is exactly what you’re doing.

Hard currency is not the same value concept, except in countries where they just print money  when they want more and in those situations they actually reduce the value of the currency the more they print. 
 

By definition of how BitCoins are generated you couldn’t build enough nuclear power plants even if you took up every inch of planetary space.  And safety of the power plant isnt the problem, disposal of highly radioactive material is the problem.  Underground or at the bottom of the sea.  Do you know how it cost to build a safe nuclear power plant?  

Not to mention why?  We already have currency that doesn’t require massive amounts of energy resources.  The people that enjoy BitCoin is because it can’t be traced ... which eludes to my prior comment of locating the money trail in order to find the truth.  BitCoin is another way the hide the Truth.

Cheers, Rob

You do know what most scammers on this planet use for the same purpose? Gift cards. Google, Apple, Amazon, Target, .... etc. Bought with US $$$. To hide the truth. Chew on this.

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I'm done arguing about this. There are places on this Earth where Bitcoin has actual value. Bitcoin and US Dollars are used to hide the truth and buy questionable goods. Crypto is in the cloud as are stocks and futures, propagated by Wall Street. You have your opinion as do I. And it's good this way. I don't say you're wrong. I hope you can at least a bit understand my opinion. That's what democracy is all about, right? Again, good night.

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