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martin-w

Tesla and Toyota Partnership.

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Posted (edited)

This could be very significant.

 

https://www.torquenews.com/1/tesla-and-toyota-are-considering-jointly-developing-small-electric-suv-platform

"Toyota provides the vehicle platform to Tesla, and instead, Tesla provides some of the electronic control platform and software technology installed in its vehicle to Toyota.

When the partnership with Toyota is established, Tesla will be able to launch a compact SUV electric vehicle at low cost using the Toyota platform. In addition, Tesla's sales in Japan, which are around 1,000 units per year, are likely to increase significantly."

Edited by martin-w
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So will it be called Toyosla or Tesyota?  Electric vehicles may be the way of the future and joint ventures may be the best way to make them affordable to the masses.


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It will be a very bumpy ride,  Japanese are great businessmen but relationships form much of the basis and tantrums are not well accepted in Japanese culture.  My guess is they are the ones who will have the upper hand and Telsla will only be involved to the deals that Toyota can profit by.

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Harry Woodrow

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Just now, harrry said:

only be involved to the deals that Toyota can profit by.

 

Well that's business. I would expect both to profit. There was a brief partnership a while back and it wasn't mutually beneficial so they parted ways. Given that Tesla are now a bigger deal, and have a lot to offer, and likewise Toyota have a lot to offer Tesla... I see this going somewhere. Its advantageous to both. If its not beneficial to Tesla Musk is the sort of businessman to pull out in a flash. He doesn't mess about. 

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I won't live long enough to see it but Musk is backing the wrong horse for the long-term. The future is hydrogen, not electricity. And Toyota knows that, thank goodness. Anyone who has said that fuel cells are "mind-bogglingly stupid" is not as far-seeing as most people seem to think. Money can't buy everything. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, W2DR said:

Musk is backing the wrong horse for the long-term. The future is hydrogen, not electricity.

 

No, that's not true! Hydrogen has a future for larger vehicles and shipping but not cars. Battery tech is way, way ahead of hydrogen in this respect. And the battery tech in the lab now is quite frankly revolutionary. Solid state batteries are already here and some companies already have prototype production lines set up. 

As I say, hydrogen is great for shipping, lorries and busses but not for cars. The infrastructure to supply hydrogen to a multitude of cars, safely transport it, not to mention manufacture it CO2 free just isn't there and is horrendously expensive to build.

Hydrogen just isn't efficient and requires expensive catalysts for the fuel cells, primarily platinum. 

BEV's have already swamped hydrogen and technologically hydrogen cannot catch up.

 

 

The reason why hydrogen is inefficient is because the energy must move from wire to gas to wire in order to power a car. This is sometimes called the energy vector transition.

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

 

Why Hydrogen Will Never Be The Future Of Electric Cars

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2020/07/04/why-hydrogen-will-never-be-the-future-of-electric-cars/?sh=58c6389812fa

 

Quote

 

However, the safety concerns are not the main reason why hydrogen is a far inferior option for personal transportation than BEVs. If one of your main goals is to save the planet, BEVs are considerably more energy efficient than FCVs, when you take into account the whole series of steps between power generation and propulsion. With a BEV, once the electricity is generated – hopefully from a renewable source – the supply of this to your vehicle charging location loses about 5%. The charging and discharging of the battery then lose another 10%. Finally, the motor wastes another 5% driving the vehicle. That makes for a total loss of 20%.

With a hydrogen fuel cell, however, you first have to convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. Then the gas has to be compressed, chilled and transported, which loses another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a BEV. The grand total is a 62% loss – more than three times as much. Or, to put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W for a BEV, but only 380W for an FCV – less than half as much. That’s a huge inefficiency if you’re hoping for a greener future, and doesn’t even take into account the fact that 95% of hydrogen is currently generated from fossil fuel sources.

 

 

Fossil fuel companies WANT you to love hydrogen of course. Because most hydrogen is manufactured from fossil fuels. 

Edited by martin-w

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They should make a clockwork car and dual-market it as a home gym too, whereby you wind up your car by running on a treadmill in the evening, thus getting exercise and putting that calorie burn to good use, and the following day your clockwork car is good to go. 🤣


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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, martin-w said:

No, that's not true! Hydrogen has a future for larger vehicles and shipping but not cars. Battery tech is way, way ahead of hydrogen in this respect.

That's certainly true in the short-term. As I said, I won't live to see it but in the long-term hydrogen will win the "battle". Remember the naysayers from 20 years ago predicting the impossibility of the electric vehicle being successful? Just as they were wrong then so is Musk and the rest of the hydrogen naysayers today.

Edited by W2DR

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3 minutes ago, Chock said:

They should make a clockwork car and dual-market it as a home gym too, whereby you wind up your car by running on a treadmill in the evening, thus getting exercise and putting that calorie burn to good use, and the following day your clockwork car is good to go. 🤣

 

Fred Flinstone had an even better solution involving fewer moving parts. 

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1 minute ago, W2DR said:

That's certainly true in the short-term As I said, I won't live to see it but the long-term future hydrogen will win the "battle". Remember the naysayers from 20 years ago predicting the impossibility of the electric vehicle being successful? Just as they were wrong so is Musk and the rest of the naysayers today.

 

Except you have zero basis for that prediction. Hydrogen will not win the battle long term, you cant ignore physics, its simply not efficient enough. Batteries are way more efficient and technologically way ahead. 

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That was also said about electricity way back when..........


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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, W2DR said:

That was also said about electricity way back when..........

 

If they did, they didn't know or consider the physics involved. Now we do and can. 

People complain about lithium ion batteries catching fire... so imagine how they would react if a multitude of cars were driving around with volatile hydrogen in their tanks and there were a multitude of hydrogen stations storing gallons of the stuff! Already they are having to line the tanks with kevlar in case they explode. I kid you not. Not to mention hundreds of tankers transporting hydrogen all around the world. And all to power our cars in a VERY inefficient way. Sense it does not make.

Lets not forget, hydrogen explosions are not new. Simple electrostatic discharges have taken out storage facilities.

https://h2tools.org/lessons/hydrogen-storage-explosion

 

Now compare the above with a car with a solid state battery that can drive 800 miles plus and recharge in 5 minutes. And of yes, you can charge it at home in utter safety. Common sense has the answer.

Edited by martin-w

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This guy is interesting though...

 

 

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Tickled by the wind turbines on that boat, demonstrating the Conservation of Perpetual Motion 🙂

They might be better replaced by a few decent-sized sails for that round-the-world trip.
Amazing to see the America's Cup foiling monohulls in town recently, getting 50 kt boatspeed out of 20 kt winds.

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13 hours ago, W2DR said:

I won't live long enough to see it but Musk is backing the wrong horse for the long-term. The future is hydrogen, not electricity.

You need to read up a bit more about so-called green hydrogen. As an option in consumer vehicles, it is basically dead. Toyota backed the wrong horse and now they have to play catch-up in the BEV race.

https://insideevs.com/news/482386/us-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-sales-2020/

One of hundreds of recent articles with a similar conclusion.

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