EU bans 90+ airlines

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Is a drug that isnt FDA approved unsafe?"Some are, some aren't. But I would rather trust the FDA than some of the snake oil sold offshore, some of which can kill me. But this isn't about the FDA, is it? Rationalization is dangerous, because it can strip us of all common sense.-John

[Guest]

it isnt the FDA but the FDA is another example of paying a beuocracy to "certify" your product, even though countless certified products are still dangerous.

[Guest]

ah I see there are 2. thanks for pointing that out

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"it isn

[Guest]

You make good points, except I never said it was oppressive, just quite difficult for a poor country wanting to compete in the world market to feed their population to be forced to comply with certain safety procedures which end up consting money these countries dont have (quite ironic too considering the FAA has been so lax on many safety requirements, and usually wants until a bad accident to enforce something. How long has El Al had secure cockpit doors for example?)or just a political fallout can cost some airline its safety status because of the whims of knee jerk politicians

[Guest]

oops, I mean usually WAITS until a bad....

[Guest jboweruk]

Nobody is gonna convince me that politics doesn't play a role in all this.

[Staffan 12]

>Nobody is gonna convince me that politics doesn't play a role>in all this.Ofcourse politics plays a big roll here,.....the good old "corupted" politic. Beeing an aircraft broker since 15 years, I have come very close to that "political" procedure in some of those countries.So, basicly, if you want to start an airliner,...you know what countries you have to look at, if a government stamp is easier to get than a proper AOC. ;-)However, I want to make it very clear that there are only a handful countries, where this "politic" can be entertained. ;-)http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVoCatalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP1E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"240Gb (2x120) 7200rpm HDLacie 250Gb Extern HD

[Guest]

If I need to accept poor safety standards and substandard products from "poor countries" (while not accepting them from our own countries of course) just to help "poor countries compete" than I'd rather not have them compete as that's not competition.And as I refuse to accept substandard products and standards from my own country's companies that just won't fly.These countries get everything already. Free loans, massive aid programs making it so the people there never have to work because everything is provided for them (or would be if their governments weren't so incredibly corrupt that 95% of what is sent there from my tax money disappears into Swiss bank accounts immediately).If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort to survive in a free world market.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"These countries get everything already. Free loans, massive aid programs making it so the people there never have to work because everything is provided for them"You are skating on thin ice here Jeroen with many of our members. I've traveled to these countries, and if you consider living in a thatched hut with dirt floors having "everything already" and having to walk five miles to get water and bathe "never having to work", I don't think you understand the subject you're trying to tackle here. I do agree--many of these countries get aid and that aid vanishes into the accounts of a very few strongarm dictators. But those few aren't the populace as a whole, which suffers incredibly from the corruption that aid programs can aggravate."If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort to survive in a free world market."This comment is way out of line. Now you are injecting racism into this thread. No one has mentioned color of skin to make any of their points here, except for you. Please cease and desist immediately. PM me, Ken or Tom if you have any issues with what I am saying -John

[Guest]

>If I need to accept poor safety standards and substandard>products from "poor countries" (while not accepting them from>our own countries of course) just to help "poor countries>compete" than I'd rather not have them compete as that's not>competition.>Yet you buy products from China, right?>And as I refuse to accept substandard products and standards>from my own country's companies that just won't fly.>The problem isn't substandard products (which is ironic considering almost everything is made in 3rd world countries to begin with) its the problem of politics and the big player throwing their might on the rest of the world>These countries get everything already. are you seriously saying this?>Free loans, "free" loans? first of all that is an oxymoron, secondly, it is flat out wrong>massive aid programs making it so the people there never have to work>because everything is provided for them is that why 50,000 children die every day around the world from a lack of basic necessities?>(or would be if their>governments weren't so incredibly corrupt that 95% of what is>sent there from my tax money disappears into Swiss bank>accounts immediately).these corrupt governments are supported by these loan packages as long as they allow first world corporations to use up all their resources and cheap labor>If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not>even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated>unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort to>survive in a free world market.I hope you realize there is nothing "free" about the marketplace. Ever heard of tarrifs? subsidies? tax breaks? And thats just for starters.I really wish people would further their education instead of their prejudices

[Guest]

I've travelled widely as well. The people who are getting the money we send them are the people who it's not meant for as we both confirmed.In fact, the organisations distributing the aid often don't want it to reach tribes living in the bush because that would "expose them to corrupt western values" and cause them to "loose their traditional way of life".It's sickening, but such is reality.No racism intended, just repeating the party line of the anti-racism groups who are openly claiming that indeed black African nations are treated unfairly when in fact what they want is preferential treatment for those countries rather than fair treatment which is what they get already (and more than that quite often).Personally I don't care what colour of skin someone has, trying to judge people solely on merit of their actions.If organisations claiming to want the same are actually making that impossible (or even illegal) by forcing preferential treatment and lower standards to be applied to certain population groups based on their heritage or colour of skin that's not my policy but I will point it out even if people might not like to hear it.

[Guest]

That is completely untrue. People do get the money, but its the problem with the organizations who would rather take the donations and use them for administrative costs, then givew a small percentage to the actual people, or push their beliefs (ie a religious charity) rather than give aid.The good that few missionaries have done is few and far between. But they are a good example of people who go "out into the bush" and set up hospitals for these extremely helpless people.But as long as you blame their own leaders rather than yours and the people who knowingly and willingly give to corrupt governments, nothing will ever change. They will continue to be poor and you will continue to sit on your ivory tower

[Guest]

>>If I need to accept poor safety standards and substandard>>products from "poor countries" (while not accepting them>from>>our own countries of course) just to help "poor countries>>compete" than I'd rather not have them compete as that's not>>competition.>>>>Yet you buy products from China, right?>not if I can avoid it no.In fact I check products to make sure they're not "made in China" and buy something else if I have a choice or do without if not and it's not something that's stricly needed.>>And as I refuse to accept substandard products and standards>>from my own country's companies that just won't fly.>>>>The problem isn't substandard products (which is ironic>considering almost everything is made in 3rd world countries>to begin with) its the problem of politics and the big player>throwing their might on the rest of the world>the problem with these airlines IS that they're substandard...>>These countries get everything already. >>are you seriously saying this?>they get enough in foreign aid that they'd have booming economies if they'd use it wisely.>>Free loans, >>"free" loans? first of all that is an oxymoron, secondly, it>is flat out wrong>Don't pay back for a few years and the loan gets turned into a gift.That's well known, and many of these countries play the game quite well.>>massive aid programs making it so the people there never have>to work>>because everything is provided for them >>is that why 50,000 children die every day around the world>from a lack of basic necessities?>blame the people misappropriating the aid, not the volume of it.>>(or would be if their>>governments weren't so incredibly corrupt that 95% of what>is>>sent there from my tax money disappears into Swiss bank>>accounts immediately).>>these corrupt governments are supported by these loan packages>as long as they allow first world corporations to use up all>their resources and cheap labor>false. Western companies pay people in 3rd world countries wages which (while lower than their counterparts in Europe or the US would make) are high by the local standard of living.Cheap labour is cheap only in comparison with labour elsewhere.If I didn't have to pay 700 euro a month in rent, 300 more in electricity and heating bills, several hundred in insurance and taxes, etc. etc. I could work for a lower wage too.It's often claimed that people in sub Saharan countries are poor BECAUSE they earn low wages, but you can't judge poverty from a direct income comparison alone. If you can pay the rent and other cost of living and buy a meal for yourself from $2 a day in Kenia, you're richer than someone who has to go to the foodbank in New York on an income of $50 a day because he can't buy food on that after paying his landlord.>>If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not>>even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated>>unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort>to>>survive in a free world market.>>I hope you realize there is nothing "free" about the>marketplace. Ever heard of tarrifs? subsidies? tax breaks? And>thats just for starters.>which work both ways...Sure there is market protection as well, but not on the scale you suggest and certainly not aimed explicitly at preventing "poor" nations from competing.>I really wish people would further their education instead of>their prejudicesif people were to listen less to the "give us your money for the poor children in Africa" commercials and read up more about how the world really works maybe there'd be less prejudice...A while ago I decided to sum up all the requests for donations thrown about the TV screen on a single evening. I ended up with an amount I'd have to donate to charity if I'd even give them all the minimum amount that would exceed my disposable income...Something's wrong with such a situation.And yes, most of that money never reaches the people it's intended for.It either gets spent on "conferences" in Cancun and Rio beach resorts for execs of the charities, or gets misappropriated by government functionaries in the recipient countries.And that's on top of a good portion of my income tax which goes the same way either directly or indirectly.

[Guest]

Ironic you preach the free market yet cannot understand that the "free" market relies upon cheap and slave labor. But then you justify it using the same justification for slavery. "they live better lives now!"And the volume of aid is pathetic, less than .5% GDP in aid to poor countries around the world.No wages are not higher by the local standard of living, they are along the same lines and sometimes worse. The only reason people take them is because there are not enough total jobs thanks to these companies diluting the market with their sweatshopsYour income tax almost always goes to wealthy corporations and politicians, by the way.Yes there are preventions to keep the poor to compete, they are part of the World banks loans to said poor country, open up your markets to foreign powerful corporations or else you get no money. So how can a farmer with nothing who lives in a poor country compete with a multinational corporation who is given free reign and tax breaks?