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samisahusky

initial climb out altitude

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I am not heating ATC giving me an initial climb out altitude with my departure clearance, but it does for AI. Shouldn't ATC say "climb and maintain ___, expect FL___ within 10 minutes after departure" ... or even on takeoff clearance? Am I just missing something here?


Steven Destazio (DVA12924)

 

"There's not reason to be alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of the fight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" - Elaine Dickinson

We all started learning a product/feature at some point in our tenure within the flight sim community. Please understand that and understand that people come here to learn how to solve problems, not be harassed because you feel you are better than everyone else. We are all equal. Show respect and you'll get respect. Please don't guess at a solution unless trial/error and remember we are here to help each other and learn/teach from each other. Check your ego at the door. We should be interacting as if we will be sitting next to each other on the flight deck, not grade school bullies.

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sorting out a reply to fit your signature requirement ..... given I have not in the past.


for now, cheers

john martin

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10 hours ago, samisahusky said:

I am not heating ATC giving me an initial climb out altitude with my departure clearance, but it does for AI. Shouldn't ATC say "climb and maintain ___, expect FL___ within 10 minutes after departure" ... or even on takeoff clearance? Am I just missing something here?

I would be really interested in the answer too !
Unfortunately I don't get an initial flight level either! When I climb (on my own) to 10000ft, I suddenly get a strange instruction: sink to 7000 ft....
... this has happened to me several times ! How do I know how high I am allowed to climb at the beginning ?

am grateful for any help

regards

ggerolamo


kind regards, ggerolamo

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1 hour ago, Polymerman said:

This was discussed here....Just a suggestion... search your topic before posting:😉

Sorry, probably (I hope ;-)) meant nicely, but unfortunately explains nothing at all and does not answer the question at all 😞
In the meantime, Voxatc has its own airac-cycle, which hopefully will be correct !?!
I hope this is really just meant as a joke, that I have to change my xml files before every flight....

Please enlighten me 😉

regards

ggerolamo
 


kind regards, ggerolamo

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4 hours ago, Polymerman said:

This was discussed here....Just a suggestion... search your topic before posting:😉

 

@Polymerman

1) Clicking on the link returns "Sorry, we could not find that!" so there is nothing to search. Did you try clicking on the link yourself? Searching the forum would not have returned that result as it does not exist.

2) That post is regarding an older version of VATC and an older version of the sim so even if the link did work, it would not be up to date. That post is almost 4 years old and I am sure a few things have changed in VATC since - like adding or removing the initial climb out instructions or some other adjustment that caused that function to no longer work.


Steven Destazio (DVA12924)

 

"There's not reason to be alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of the fight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" - Elaine Dickinson

We all started learning a product/feature at some point in our tenure within the flight sim community. Please understand that and understand that people come here to learn how to solve problems, not be harassed because you feel you are better than everyone else. We are all equal. Show respect and you'll get respect. Please don't guess at a solution unless trial/error and remember we are here to help each other and learn/teach from each other. Check your ego at the door. We should be interacting as if we will be sitting next to each other on the flight deck, not grade school bullies.

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2 hours ago, ggerolamo said:

Sorry, probably (I hope ;-)) meant nicely, but unfortunately explains nothing at all and does not answer the question at all 😞
In the meantime, Voxatc has its own airac-cycle, which hopefully will be correct !?!
I hope this is really just meant as a joke, that I have to change my xml files before every flight....

Please enlighten me 😉

regards

ggerolamo
 

If you have Navigraph subscription, you can get FMS Data Manager from Navigraph - VoxATC used the same format as the Level-D 767 so go into "addon mappings" click "add" select "LevelD 767" from the drop-down list, manually map it to wherever you installed VoxATC "VoxATC\NavData" folder, click save, then go back to the addon list in the FMS Data Manager and select LevelD 767 and update. Every time there is an update to the AIRAC cycle, VoxATC will be updated also. If you also have the LevelD 767 addon, both can be added and mapped to different folders so you can have both updated.

If you don't have Navigraph subscription, then I am not sure if you could update it monthly for free, but in general, very little changes are made to existing procedures other that for example a STAR named CAR1A this month may change to CAR1B next month, but comparing them shows exactly the same waypoints with the same procedures. So even the default AIRAC that comes with VoxATC will still be 98% accurate overall.


Steven Destazio (DVA12924)

 

"There's not reason to be alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of the fight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" - Elaine Dickinson

We all started learning a product/feature at some point in our tenure within the flight sim community. Please understand that and understand that people come here to learn how to solve problems, not be harassed because you feel you are better than everyone else. We are all equal. Show respect and you'll get respect. Please don't guess at a solution unless trial/error and remember we are here to help each other and learn/teach from each other. Check your ego at the door. We should be interacting as if we will be sitting next to each other on the flight deck, not grade school bullies.

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3 hours ago, ggerolamo said:

In the meantime, Voxatc has its own airac-cycle, which hopefully will be correct !?!
I hope this is really just meant as a joke, that I have to change my xml files before every flight...

The recently available VATC airac is different to the LDS one .... it includes extra data  to be used for upcoming changes that better manage TMA sequencing of AI/user aircraft.

There are no changes yet to assigned departure / arrival procedures though I am hoping "climb/descend via" RNAV's will be better assigned (compared with legacy ones).

For the moment, one should expect "an initial altitude" on both legacy & RNAV SID's .... except for those rare RNAV's which have a coded "at altitude" restraint at any fix on the procedure (as shown on one's chart). Unfortunately, VATC does not currently issue an ICAO compliant "climb via XXXXX to FLYYY" in this latter case, just no "initial altitude" but expects you to follow the chart (ie not bust that altitude & await further step climbs to cruise).

Further, for now ATC advisories on charts (eg TOP on FAA SID's) are not coded & hence currently not "recognised" by VATC. One can as I do add that TOP to one's airac to better use "climb via procedures".

Hope that helps. 


for now, cheers

john martin

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Posted (edited)

I’ve been following the SID restrictions when there are some, or just going right on up to cruise if no restrictions. ATC will usually start telling me to climb higher as I get close to certain altitudes (ie - when coming up of FL100, ATC will instruct to “climb FL160” and then another increase as I get close to FL160). 
 

Aside from the post topic, I’ve also been noticing that ATC sends all aircraft to only 1 runway for departure and 1 for arrival. For example, LFPG has 4 runways 09R/L and 08R/L and in the ADE (and indexed in VATC before every new flight), the inside runways (09R and 08L) are set for departure only and outside runways (09L and 08R) are set for arrivals only (westbound are set the same way with outside=arrival and inside=departure). But ATC will send all departing traffic to ONLY 09R and arriving aircraft to ONLY 08R ignoring the runway closest to the aircraft for either arrival or departure. I’m not sure if these are settings I’ve missed somewhere in VATC because I’m still trying to get used to it, or if this is just how it is going to be. It’s a pain to taxi for 30 minutes to a runway on the complete opposite side of the field when there is one much closer, and if an aircraft is arriving from the south, should use the 08 runways while north arrival would use 09. I hate having to ask all these questions, but I’m finding it difficult to work through so many different exe files and xml files to make settings adjustments as needed, especially when scattered around between the install location and the documents folder, and not even sure if such settings exist in the first place.

Edited by samisahusky
Add info

Steven Destazio (DVA12924)

 

"There's not reason to be alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of the fight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" - Elaine Dickinson

We all started learning a product/feature at some point in our tenure within the flight sim community. Please understand that and understand that people come here to learn how to solve problems, not be harassed because you feel you are better than everyone else. We are all equal. Show respect and you'll get respect. Please don't guess at a solution unless trial/error and remember we are here to help each other and learn/teach from each other. Check your ego at the door. We should be interacting as if we will be sitting next to each other on the flight deck, not grade school bullies.

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6 hours ago, samisahusky said:

I’ve been following the SID restrictions when there are some, or just going right on up to cruise if no restrictions. ATC will usually start telling me to climb higher as I get close to certain altitudes (ie - when coming up of FL100, ATC will instruct to “climb FL160” and then another increase as I get close to FL160). 

So a series of step climbs after a clearance to an initial altitude (ie climb&maintain, normally 6000'agl) ..... at LPFG ?


for now, cheers

john martin

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17 hours ago, vadriver said:

So a series of step climbs after a clearance to an initial altitude (ie climb&maintain, normally 6000'agl) ..... at LPFG ?

The series of step climbs would be for any airport that does not have any altitude restrictions on the SID. I can't remember which one, but a few flights back, there was an altitude restriction for the 2nd waypoint of "at or above 6,000" and ATC kept me and all AI at 6,000 well past this waypoint until the end of the SID many many miles later, and never had us climb out more. I've just been ignoring those and eventually ATC will instruct me higher, or I can request higher and they will grant it.

LFPG was only used as an example for the only 1 runway issue, which happens at all airports with 3 or more runways in the same direction (KATL would be another example of this). Basically, I try to keep all departures on the most inside runways and all arrivals on the most outside runways, but ATC will ignore the 2 runway options and send everyone to the same runway, but separate runways for arrivals and departures. I hope that makes sense. It would be best to see the example above and if you're looking at a chart of LFPG when reading the example, you'll see what I'm seeing. To further clarify the example, I was parked at LFPG at gate C8 so if eastbound departures and arrivals, then 8L should have been the runway used for departing, but ATC sent ALL departures (regardless of what runway was closest) to 9R. Looking at a map of AI at the same time, I noticed that ALL arriving aircraft were being assigned to 8R (meaning arrivals from the north were having to go past 9L which was also open for arrivals, but ignored by ATC). When you crank the AI traffic up, this causes very long lines for departure, and many go-arounds for arrivals because only half of the available runways are actually being used - not to mention the time to taxi completely across the airport as huge as LFPG is. Again, I am not sure if this is a settings issue I have not made correctly because I can't find that setting, or if this was an oversight by VATC. It is hard to tell because there is no less than 30 exe and/or xml files in the installation directory alone, not to mention the ones also put into the "username\AppData\Roaming\Internal Workings\VoxATC P3D 5\documents\" folder


Steven Destazio (DVA12924)

 

"There's not reason to be alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of the fight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" - Elaine Dickinson

We all started learning a product/feature at some point in our tenure within the flight sim community. Please understand that and understand that people come here to learn how to solve problems, not be harassed because you feel you are better than everyone else. We are all equal. Show respect and you'll get respect. Please don't guess at a solution unless trial/error and remember we are here to help each other and learn/teach from each other. Check your ego at the door. We should be interacting as if we will be sitting next to each other on the flight deck, not grade school bullies.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, samisahusky said:

The series of step climbs would be for any airport that does not have any altitude restrictions on the SID. I can't remember which one, but a few flights back, there was an altitude restriction for the 2nd waypoint of "at or above 6,000" and ATC kept me and all AI at 6,000 well past this waypoint until the end of the SID many many miles later, and never had us climb out more. I've just been ignoring those and eventually ATC will instruct me higher, or I can request higher and they will grant it.

Very much my own observations & by others previously over the years.

My understanding from a support response is that VATC may (with its own ATC specific airac) make a better call on both SID&STAR clearances as appropriate to RNAV (climb/descend via) vs legacy procedures (steps)......soon.

On 6/6/2021 at 9:05 AM, vadriver said:

Further, for now ATC advisories on charts (eg TOP on FAA SID's) are not coded & hence currently not "recognised" by VATC. One can as I do add that TOP to one's airac to better use "climb via procedures".

 

Edited by vadriver

for now, cheers

john martin

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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2021 at 11:07 AM, samisahusky said:

or if this was an oversight by VATC.

More not needed than an oversight ........ given "sectorisation" of both arrival & departure flows needs more than one discrete frequency for each of ground / tower / departure to manage the comms for 60 movements per hour, no matter how many runways.

It is only recently that AI inventories could / can have sufficient and comprehensive plans that "simulate" real flows such as at LPFG & KATL, so thus only a recent need for VATC to develop sectorisation & to use additional comms to manage such. And even then, it would only be needed at airports with 3 or more parallels.

But I guess VATC will do such in the medium term using its new airac to segregate flows to SIDS & STARS as needed. & I suppose I am fortunate for now I don't fly to such "huge" hubs.

On 6/7/2021 at 11:07 AM, samisahusky said:

When you crank the AI traffic up,

I would thus not recommend this for the above reasons, even if you feel it's real at LPFG.

PS after taxi clearance, you can request an available alternative.

Edited by vadriver

for now, cheers

john martin

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