MSFS has the most advanced flight model?

[bean_sprout 1,201]

2 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

This was before 9/11. I am guessing it is much more difficult today to arrange. Back then, just the hydraulics platform for the motion was around $2,000,000+. When you took off, it would throw you back in the seat, feeling just like an actual takeoff. If you did a rejected takeoff, you had to make sure your seatbelt was securely fastened, or you could wind up plastered against the panel. 

 

https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/aviation-simulation-equipment/training-equipment/full-flight-simulators/

Right before we non-comms  left our tour of duty we had the chance to take a ride in an NA T28 that we used to train Laotians, Cambodians and Thai pilots.  The flight to the bombing range was pleasant enough until the pilot did a backflip that ended up in a vertical dive to the target from about 10,000 feet.   As the plane raced to the ground and while I was eyeing the ejection handle the T28 began to shudder violently until I couldn't hear anymore.   When the dummy bombs were released  I was certain that the plane would shake itself apart (yes some actually did).

Then we were back into a vertical climb to do it all over again for about 5x total runs.

It's this seat-of-the-pants sensation that is missing from our tame desktop flight sim experience.  Maybe an advanced full motion sim can duplicate it but I'm not sure that the shear terror part would be present.

Anyway, as a now old dude I've come to appreciate the tame desktop flight sim experience.

Regards

bs

Edited June 8, 2021 by bean_sprout

[HighTowers 1,434]

Might as well put my 2cents worth in.  I cant comment on whether a flight model is truly realistic because I am not a real world pilot.  I will say it is far different to just being an observant in a level D sim with full motion.  Being in a DC-10 level D way back when, was the most surreal feeling and so akin to being in the real machine. And thats what we are lacking in our home desktop simulators. Motion feedback.  

What I do know though, is that we have made progress. Going back to FS 2.0 , the improvements in technology to give us the simulation that plays on the senses we can use in a desktop sim, is the best we can ask for and should really appreciate. FSX should not be knocked for the flight models that came out of there were really unsurpassed in high fidelity simulation. XP did the same thru the years, and on with P3D. They all had their time where they peaked. I think MSFS is now the future with so much technology put into it. This is demonstrated well with the visualizations mappings of say how wind interacts with the mountains.  This will continue to be improved on even further. So for our love the hobby which is really very niche, we all should be appreciative of what we have and that we have the support of a massive corporation.  Sure you can say what you will about MS and business practices, but theres no way we would be here today without a huge resource of financial backing, knowledge and experience taken to the highest level. Remember some others tried, but just didnt have the money and all the resources MS does and thus failed. 

Raise a beer to the flight simulation hobby and be proud of it no matter the sim platform you choose to be in. 

[ThrottleUp 617]

8 hours ago, EvidencePlz said:

Here's a comment about flight model in home desktop flight sims from Matt Nischan of Working Title he posted in March 2021:

Source: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/real-physics-for-each-aircraft/372656/256

That really is very well written. Should be permanently pinned to the top of every flight sim forum! Nice balanced view without any fanboi flag waving.

[ThrottleUp 617]

7 hours ago, bean_sprout said:

  As the plane raced to the ground and while I was eyeing the ejection handle the T28 began to shudder violently until I couldn't hear anymore.   When the dummy bombs were released  I was certain that the plane would shake itself apart (yes some actually did).

Then we were back into a vertical climb to do it all over again for about 5x total runs.I

Wow what a ride , what an experience you had!  Its nice to hear accounts like this. 

[Dominique_K 10,138]

11 hours ago, HighTowers said:

 

Raise a beer to the flight simulation hobby and be proud of it no matter the sim platform you choose to be in. 

You make an excellent and well-needed point

There is a temptation to dismiss the topic as it is, most of the time, taken over by the fan crowd... or real pilots who know better (lucky bunch 🤣). I did my best to ignore it. Failed once, Will fail twice. 

Flight simulation has known a slow but formidable advancement since the late 70s,  specially the environment and the reaction of the simcraft to it. And comes with it the sensation of flying, the intricacies of managing an engine and planning a navigation. . Yes Virginia there was a time when there were no spin or slip or even stall in our our simulation.  

But any simulation is almost by nature something incomplete. Here we miss the feedback of forces playing in three dimensions on the user body.  Motion contraption  bring motion but not forces. And I do not think we won't have that anytime soon as it implies toying with the central nervous system. I said  "I do not think" because I am not sure. The fact that VR induces motion sickness to many users shows that you can fool the brain. to some extent. A neurologist point of view would be interesting. 

The simulators we fly today, being XP, P3D, MFS or DCS are better, more convincing and should I say it ? Yes I should, closer to reality  than the ones we flew twenty-five years ago. They maybe still far from the real thing but the progress towards this goal is here and continuous.  

And if we can compare them over time we can compare the simulators we have today between themselves.  They have different approaches (1000-point, BET etc...) which bring different outcomes all worthy of attention. After all, approximations validated by experiments is the way physics is done.

I raise my glass with you High Towers 🍻 !

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dominique_K

[LRBS 947]

12 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

There is a temptation to dismiss the topic as it is, most of the time, taken over by the fan crowd... or real pilots who know better (lucky bunch 🤣). I did my best to ignore it. Failed once, Will fail twice. 

 

Dominique, I hope that you would reconsider this "cavalier" statement about the real pilots.

There are a few of us with different backgrounds and many years of experience under our belt, flying from small to heavy equipment with many hours of flight time.

If we call it how it is, it might be unpleasant for a developer / PC aircraft designer. There is a huge difference between a PC developer/"designer" versus a real aircraft designer.  This is where the input from the real pilots is desirable and in concert with the developer to replicate as much as possible a correct aircraft behavior.

Even in the real life after an airplane is designed, real pilots/test pilots inputs are required for fine tuning starting from the wind tunnel, simulator and actual flying for a better outcome.

We have to understand that MSFS 2020 certain flight dynamics are off and need changes to resemble as much as possible what actually an airplane is doing.

So, the "real pilots" inputs, especially in the case of MSFS is something to be appreciated and taken in consideration for a better simulator experience for the benefit of all.

As an ex airline pilot I think that MSFS has lots of potential and could be embraced by many. Sadly, at the present time there are issues that need attention.

[Dominique_K 10,138]

12 hours ago, killthespam said:

Dominique, I hope that you would reconsider this "cavalier" statement about the real pilots.

Cavalier, moi 😄 ? 

First, I was not speaking of pilots in general and their inputs in flight simulation but, tongue-in-cheek, of pilots in such a thread as this one.

Real pilots ? Hmmm... they are all sort of pilots here. Some genuine, some fake, some friendly fellows, some boors, some who can autoland an airliner but presumably have long forgotten how to land a Cub in a strong crosswind, some who are dedicated simmers with a full set of controllers and some, occasional, with a twisting joystick, some with thousands of hours of flight and those with twenty hours of training  and so on and so forth. Pilots don’t exist as a generic specie, there are pilots.

But my point was that some real pilots even when they are nice and knowledgeable fellows, tend to measure up the sim to the golden standard of reality which is of course good, up to the point where the trees hide the forest. Flight simulation has a history, an evolution, you must assess a sim over it : not ‘does the sim reflect reality’ , it won’t, but ‘does the sim reflects reality better than its predecessors and why’. Furthermore simulation has built-in limitations and will not reflect fully reality for a long time. There is a need to strive for something better as there is a need to keep things in perpective. 

And, oh yes, the last straw, two pilots, three opinions 😉.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dominique_K

[bean_sprout 1,201]

3 years ago I  gave up these forums because of all the negativity and because P3D was no longer launching my rocket.

Today with my shiney new sim and being a few years wiser it rolls off me like water off a duck. 😎

bs

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

1 hour ago, bean_sprout said:

3 years ago I  gave up these forums because of all the negativity and because P3D was no longer launching my rocket.

Today with my shiney new sim and being a few years wiser it rolls off me like water off a duck. 😎

bs

Gotta love the Duck ...  though probably one of the ugliest aircraft ever to see military service.

 

 

[scotchegg 4,186]

LR have a new angle on the FM superiority debate, namely that they have heard from a secret source that Asobo and their employees have been plagiarizing LR’s FM. Austin is putting this out in the world, supported over on the XP forum by the XP TBM dev who also seems to think it’s possible his work has somehow ‘influenced’ Asobo’s TBM:

 

[GoranM 3,764]

5 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

LR have a new angle on the FM superiority debate, namely that they have heard from a secret source that Asobo and their employees have been plagiarizing LR’s FM. Austin is putting this out in the world, supported over on the XP forum by the XP TBM dev who also seems to think it’s possible his work has somehow ‘influenced’ Asobo’s TBM:

 

Didn't I already ask you to quit tagging me and quoting me?  You're entering creepy behaviour now.  I've asked you once in the X-Plane forums.  Now I'm asking you again.  Stop tagging me and stop quoting me!  Is that nice enough for you?

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by GoranM

[scotchegg 4,186]

4 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Didn't I already ask you to quit tagging me and quoting me?  You're entering creepy behaviour now.  I've asked you once in the X-Plane forums.  Now I'm asking you again.  Stop tagging me and stop quoting me!  Is that nice enough for you?

 

I’m not tagging but I am quoting, and the reason why I’m quoting is that you and Austin have implied some very inflammatory things. I accept there’s a small chance you’re right and you have been plagiarized, in which case it’s your right to demand an explanation. Anyway, whether true or not, I think now you’ve put them in the public domain, they should be addressed urgently.

[GoranM 3,764]

Stop stalking me!

It's plain english.  

Carry on with life.  Leave me out of your creepy behaviour!  Why are you quoting me in an MSFS forum??  Seriously, this is disturbing!

This is the 3rd time.  STOP QUOTING ME AND STOP TAGGING ME!

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by GoranM

[scotchegg 4,186]

1 minute ago, GoranM said:

Why are you quoting me in an MSFS forum??

That should be pretty obvious. You’ve posted Austin’s a implication against MSFS and added one of your own. This is directly pertinent to MSFS.

[GoranM 3,764]

3 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

That should be pretty obvious. You’ve posted Austin’s a implication against MSFS and added one of your own. This is directly pertinent to MSFS.

What do the inflammatory things Austin has posted have to do with "MSFS has the best flight model"????

It's not even inflammatory.  No one accused anyone.  It was a reposted email.  Stop reaching.

If you want to be a knight in shining armour, send an email to Asobo and make them aware of the email.

Shall I repeat myself a 4th time?

Edited June 10, 2021 by GoranM