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abrams_tank

MSFS has the most advanced flight model?

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Flight simming is so weird.

 

We went from FSX "Flies on rails" to MSFS "is better than X-Plane" now. Whatever suits your preference is the right one. No one is ever going to be actually real world correct. 


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It has been my belief (based on precious little actual evidence) that one of the "charms" of X-Plane is that aircraft behavior can be tied back to the underlying physics through the Plane Maker app included with every license. Reference is occasionally made in various promotional articles to academic uses of XP that actually make use of this capability.

Here's the description from the Plane Maker Manual:

Quote

Plane Maker is a program bundled with X‑Plane that lets users design their own aircraft. Using this software, nearly any aircraft imaginable can be built. Once all the physical specifications of the airplane have been entered (e.g., weight, wing span, control deflections, engine power, airfoil sections, etc.), the X‑Plane simulator will predict how that plane will fly in the real world; it will model the aircraft’s performance just like it does for X-Plane’s built-in aircraft.

No doubt this is just the first step in the process, but there is certainly the suggestion that aircraft performance is directly tied back to the underlying physics at least initially. I have no idea how well this all works, but at least the link to first principles is there in theory. Similarly, I don't know how this all works in MSFS. Can I design an arbitrary aircraft as a 3-D model, run it through some kind of compiler (to make an analogy to software development), and see how it flies in the sim?

As noted here and elsewhere, there are many limitations to the fidelity of desktop simulations. Which one does best in overcoming these remains a matter of opinion.

Cheers.


John Wiesenfeld KPBI | FAA PPL/SEL/IFR in a galaxy long ago and far away | VATSIM ZNY C1/PILOT P2

 

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9 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Oh, God... This won't end well.....

Agreed. Nothing worse than a "my sim is better than yours" thread. this is destined for closure 

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1 hour ago, keithb77 said:

Theoreticals aside I'd say the proof of the pudding is in the eating...if MSFS FM is so good why do the planes fly so bad?

Maybe one day....

/humour

NOrmally one would say that this is an issue with the pilot not the plane..

/humour off

Graham

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2 minutes ago, styckx said:

Agreed. Nothing worse than a "my sim is better than yours" thread. this is destined for closure 

Maybe...just maybe we can prove it to us and the mods that it doesn´t have to end this way? My contribution: I won´t contribute! 😁

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1 hour ago, keithb77 said:

Theoreticals aside I'd say the proof of the pudding is in the eating...if MSFS FM is so good why do the planes fly so bad?

Maybe one day....

For those of us who can compare with real counterpart  MSFS FM is not bad at all!  I was pretty much big fun of XP11 until MSFS came up. While I'm not trying convince anyone on XP11 side to switch, the main reason I personally have switched was because I recognized great  MSFS potential. And I'm not talking about visual but about flight simulation part.

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flight sim addict, airplane owner, CFI

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I haven't been for while on  x-plane .org forum, but what surprised me is how many XP guys come here exclusively to troll MSFS. I'm mean if person is happy with XP what is the point to come here? Constructive criticism? LOL I don't think so! I think it's actually proof that MSFS is doing well and not everyone is happy about that. Especially those who heavily invested to something else! But you  know old saying "dog barking, caravan is moving".

We will soon celebrate one year of MSFS! So guys stay where you feel happy 😉 🙂 

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flight sim addict, airplane owner, CFI

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7 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

For those of us who can compare with real counterpart  MSFS FM is not bad at all!  I was pretty much big fun of XP11 until MSFS came up. While I'm not trying convince anyone on XP11 side to switch, the main reason I personally have switched was because I recognized great  MSFS potential. And I'm not talking about visual but about flight simulation part.

That's interesting.  Because there are some real life pilots that say MSFS flight model is quite good, including you and Bobsk8.  I believe you are a CFI, right?  So your opinion and Bobsk8 matter, at least for the planes you have flown in real life and that are also in MSFS.  The other opinions that matter are the aerospace engineers who know the physics/math behind the flight model.

I am not a real life pilot so I am taking the opinion of real life pilots, and aerospace engineers, since those are the experts in this subject matter.

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3 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I haven't been for while on  x-plane .org forum, but what surprised me is how many XP guys come here exclusively to troll MSFS. I'm mean if person is happy with XP what is the point to come here? Constructive criticism? LOL I don't think so! I think it's actually proof that MSFS is doing well and not everyone is happy about that. Especially those who heavily invested to something else! But you  know old saying "dog barking, caravan is moving".

We will soon celebrate one year of MSFS! So guys stay where you feel happy 😉 🙂 

I think the XP folks see the writing on the wall, and they don't like what they see, if you catch my drift. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I haven't been for while on  x-plane .org forum, but what surprised me is how many XP guys come here exclusively to troll MSFS. I'm mean if person is happy with XP what is the point to come here? Constructive criticism? LOL I don't think so! I think it's actually proof that MSFS is doing well and not everyone is happy about that. Especially those who heavily invested to something else! But you  know old saying "dog barking, caravan is moving".

We will soon celebrate one year of MSFS! So guys stay where you feel happy 😉 🙂 

I invested heavily into FSX

Then P3D

Then I jumped ship to X-Plane as FSX/P3D was getting very long in the tooth. And the ease of creating Ortho was attractive  I heavily invested in X-Plane also

Now I'm back to MSFS

I have no hate for X-Plane. It suited my needs at a time, is an excellent simulator but my preference is MSFS right now.

I don't get the needing to "flex" as if one is superior than the other. It's what suits "your" needs. It's not a popularity contest 

Edited by styckx
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, snglecoil said:

I the sim was nothing life real life.  

This is an irrefutable argument and I would add as old as this kind of thread. Difficult to replicate the working of the inner ear and all that. At least, until they implant bio-chips somewhere in our central nervous system.  

But I would argue that 'comparing simulators has no merit because they are too far from reality anyway' is too static a reasoning.

Let see it in a dynamic way. Is there any doubt that flight modeling has evolved towards more realism over the years (eg spin, slip etc.), that the present generation of sims has a better flight modeling than those of the early 2000 which were better that the ones of early 90s and all the way to the late 70s ?  I saw almost them all. It was not a linear progress but the trend was definitely upward. Allow me a caricature : A Rob Young's bird is way better in conveying the piloting experience than the Sopwith cCamel which made our days in the early 80s or  the Alphasim birds of the 90s. 

Logic would dictate that the continuous progress should lead somewhere in the future to something asymptotically nearing reality.  Yes, it will take time. But, as a snake biting its own tail 😉,  it then makes sense to compare present day simulators vis-à-vis reality because they are part of this evolution and carry the potential for better modeling (or not).

Edited by Dominique_K
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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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15 minutes ago, styckx said:

I invested heavily into FSX

Then P3D

Then I jumped ship to X-Plane as FSX/P3D was getting very long in the tooth. And the ease of creating Ortho was attractive  I heavily invested in X-Plane also

Now I'm back to MSFS

I have no hate for X-Plane. It suited my needs at a time, is an excellent simulator but my preference is MSFS right now.

I don't get the needing to "flex" as if one is superior than the other. It's what suits "your" needs. It's not a popularity contest 

You are pretty much summarized my point.  However, the reason this debate still exists because often MSFS being put down by other fun group, and they don't hesitate to come and spill it here

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flight sim addict, airplane owner, CFI

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So what actually constitutes a realistic flight model? Adherence to the POH, stall performance, sensitivity to controls, adverse yaw, turbulence effects, rudder effectiveness, ground handling  , etc? GA planes, airliners, gliders….

not easy to lump it all into one single thing  

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

You are pretty much summarized my point.  However, the reason this debate still exists because often MSFS being put down by other fun group, and they don't hesitate to come and spill it here

To be fair, and mods please bear with me. I'm not hating. @sd_flyer is a good guy and have nothing but respect for him.

There was a time here when FSX could do no wrong and other sims like X-Plane, P3D when it was new, and MS-Flight got absolutely trampled on and mobbed by FSX loyalists in their own respective forums.. I'm not saying what's going on now is right, but it hasn't exactly been a two way street. To AVSIMs credit. The current staff has done A LOT to stem the flow of hate, trolling, and dismissive behavior here between sims. The user base is growing again, people are generally happy and legit open discussion despite differences is more prevalent than ever.. But Let's not forget.. It wasn't always this way  and do find humor in the fact MSFS users are feeling offended by X-Plane users opinions. It's a complete role reversal. 

Edited by styckx
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10 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

But I would argue that 'comparing simulators has no merit because they are too far from reality anyway' is too static a reasoning.

Don't get me wrong, Dominique. I would never argue against continual improvement. People are free to discuss what they want, but I won't be holding my breath waiting for that one exception where the conversation is constructive. And again, for the vast majority of simmers who have no intention or means (sadly, regardless of the desire) to fly an actual airplane. It...does...not...matter. 


Chris

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