Sport Pilot -- What a bunch of baloney

[Geofa 108]

At the Aopa convention this year I looked very closely at the "certified" sport pilot airplanes. While they had a certain "ambiance" (I loved the Russian seaplane model) and cheap operating cost was appealing, I came away thinking that it is a much better bargain getting a standard ppl and buying a used conventional aircraft.I do not think your medical condition would keep you from getting a ppl-you should ask an examiner off the record,, or best write an email to aopa to ask. You will probably find that it may not be that big a deal. Since you are giving up on the Sports Pilot-it would seem you having nothing to lose.Even though the ppl will cost more to get initially-in the end I think you will get something with more power, and could end up spending much less, both in insurance and aircraft, and much more ability to do some "real-e.g. less restricted" flying.The appeal I see for a sport pilot is for those who know they can not get a medical or will shortly lose theirs. (I know a "standard" pilot who knew he was going to get booted on his next medical-instead of losing his ability to fly totally which would have happened had he reported for a medical, he became a sport pilot). To me, that is what it is really set up for-for the cheapest and best flying I think a standard ppl is still the way to go. Before you give up-I'd investigate-there are lots of pilots out there with more disabilities than you have-a pilot in our local CAP is deaf-he is now a commercial/ifr rated pilot. Check out the adds for partnerships and clubs at your local fields-there are usually several advertised-and you may find out that it can be fairly cheap-certainly not much more than boating/golfing and many of the other passions people pursue in life. It would be a shame to give up now that you have your feet wet.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Guest DNelson]

John,Just wondering if you've done some fact-checking on the class 3 medical, or if you're just assuming the worst. If you're not a member of AOPA, I'd encourage you to join. They have a first-rate medical certification staff that could give you a very detailed idea of what to expect, and how to get your class 3 medical with a minimum of red tape. There are also several AMEs (aviation medical examiners) that frequent their members-only forums and answer questions about things like this all the time. Wouldn't hurt to check into it.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I've done some checking. Without my reading glasses I wouldn't be able to pass the eye test in either eye, I don't think. My distance vision is perfect, but years of CRT use combined with my problem in my left eye have taken their toll. With reading glasses, my vision is better than 20/20 but everything I understand about vision requirements means I would require a waiver after I demonstrate proficiency. Sport Pilot is very clear--if you are failed for a FAA medical for any reason, you're grounded. Essentially that's what I am at this stage--getting to solo wasn't my goal--sharing the joy of flight with my family was. Honestly, I shouldn't be in the air. You have to "pay" to play. After a restless night thinking about this, I really think any further pursuit of it is a waste of my time and it's probably for the best.-John

[Guest DNelson]

Without my reading glasses I wouldn't be able to pass the eye test in either eye, I don't think.Don't see any problem there. You, me, and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of other 40-years-old-plus pilots couldn't pass it without reading glasses either. Just take your reading glasses to the exam and use them. You'll have a limitation on your certificate that corrective lenses are required, but again that's so common it's a non-issue. No waiver required.When I first applied for a student medical certificate in the mid-70's, I needed a one-time "statement of demonstrated ability" (not quite the same as a waiver) because my uncorrected distant vision was worse than 20/200. This just required a simple letter and exam from my ophthalmologist, and I was good for life. In fact, around 10 years ago the FAA eliminated this as a requirement for a SODA, so I no longer need to carry the SODA with me. The FAA doesn't give a rip about your uncorrected vision as long as it's correctable with glasses or contacts. It doesn't even have to be corrected to 20/20 for 3rd class, I think it's 20/40.Again, AOPA can answer all of this very conclusively.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Thanks for the feedback. One other bit of good news (possibly) is the EAA called back this AM and I asked them (since I couldn't get it to sink in to the AOPA rep) that if I have my SPL, how much is the premium. I didn't want them to write me up as a student pilot since I am learning in the Allegro. Anyway, they came back with a quote of $1800 which is much more reasonable than the $6000 that was shoved down my throat yesterday. So there's a glimmer of hope, I guess.-John

[delta november 0]

John: GO SOLO! My vision is worse than 20/400 in both eyes and I passed the PPLphysical. As long as its correctable to 20/40 your in. The partnership deal that Geofa suggested is a great idea if yousimply must have the feeling of ownership in an aircraft. And maybecheaper than renting from an FBO. If there are as many sport pilot trainees in the KPHX area as yousuggest, some FBO will offer rental aircraft soon; or you could teamup and buy one. I'm in Orlando Fl as I write this and just got done visiting an OLDfriend who lives in Jupiter. He has had an ATR/ATP since 1970 and currently flies a Gulfstream IV.He and 6 other guys purchased a used PA-28 in 1967 and formed an AeroClub. The way they worked it was this. The fixed cost was shared six ways ei; insurance,tie down,hangar,ect. If the plane's time was "Blocked" for a day or multidays, then that was figured in.Fuel and oil by user...full at finish. The variable cost...Dep and hourly scheduled Maintanence by Hrslogged. Aircraft scheduling was accomplished by bids left in the aircraftmaintainance log, first come first served. As to the fixed costs..if you reserved it and didn't use it, youstill owed that portion of the fixed cost. A friend of mine at home..back in Mo..got rid of his Cessna Cardinalcause he just couldn't justify the cost. Well it turned out that a flying buddy of his, who just happened toown a Mooney, developed a heart condition and could no longer pass aphysical, so Bob goes up with the gent and helps share the fixed costbut has the use of a way better plane than the one he had. Don't give up before you start. There are way too many options outthere ....IF you want it. NOW: Go FLY that SUCKER by yourself, and all the small stuff willwork itself out. Once you get airborne, SOLO, the rest will fall intoplace. DennyProfessional Tourist

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Update...After going over this with my wife and getting helpful advice from my boss (an old Air Force pilot), I'm going to continue on for now. I have a couple more lessons scheduled for this month, and if I am as close to soloing as my CFI claims, will probably solo the weekend of the 22nd or the first weekend in May (I have to fly out of town the last weekend of the month, so someone else will be driving the "bus", or in my case a 737-700). Honestly I'd rather not solo until I have about a half dozen more landings under my belt, but I've gone through about everything else and am handling ATC comms now. I guess sooner or later I have to be thrown out of the nest, or in this case out of my CFI's watchful eye.-JohnEdit: Not to mention the valued advice here, that is!

[Guest DreamFleet]

John,I gave you my phone number, when you e-mailed me about this well over a month ago.Why don't you give me a call, and we'll chat about this.I got "thrown out of the nest" at KTEB when I was 15, so perhaps I can help. ;-)Trust me, it's not a "bunch of baloney".Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

John,An aeroplane compatible with a Sport license need not be unatractive to a PPL pilot, I guess it depends what type of aircraft you go for. I bet there are plenty of PPLs who don't fly as much as they would like for financial reasons. I would investigate viability of the group option some more. FWIW, in my experience, one never manages to fly as often as one would like. For that reason, the aeroplane is costing you money just sitting there. If you were in a group of two or three, the aeroplane gets used regularly, ironically reducing maintenance costs, becuase used aeroplanes remain reliable. It is just great sharing the fun and burden of ownership with a couple of other enthusiastic pilots.

[G7USL 117]

John,Be thankful for achieving the levels you have attained already.In the UK it's a different story and flying is a 'pursuit' only affordable by the rich and those who keep their family short of money.Many, many people would like to have achieved your goal but like me couldn't afford it. So we live in the simulation world.Dave T. .........On the Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/http://www.captainsim.com/user/dl/c130/c130_captain.gif

[Guest avallillo]

Hope you make it, at least to solo! Insurance is, at the moment at least, one of the biggest expenses of flying. That may be about to change, what with $ 4-5/gallon gas, but it is still a big burden. And unless you have very little in the way of assets -- don't own a home, and so on --you need the liability insurance, at the very least. Since the GA tort reform act of the 1980's, the ambulance chasers have been forced to go after everyone and their dog, since the manufacturers are off the hook after some number of years. Your pockets may be deeper than you thought! And juries somehow seem to award larger sums to those injured or killed in an airplane, as opposed to a car. Car insurance is a huge risk pool, whereas aviation insurance is very small by comparison, and the increasing risks of aviation are spread out over that much smaller pool, resulting in the higher premiums. In addition to the ideas mentioned above, a flying club is another good way to spread out the expenses. A good club can be an outstanding way to fly.Some sport elibible planes can be had as old, near antique, planes which are consequently cheaper. My Thorp T-211 Sky Skooter cost me 25 grand 11 years ago, and probably would still be under 40 grand today. This one is a normal category airplane, but it CAN be flown by a sport pilot - it meets the weight and speed restrictions. This is key to remember - a sport pilot need not limit himself to airplanes certified in the sport category. He merely needs to fly airplanes that QUALIFY by virtue of speed, seats, and weight. There are a number of small two seaters that qualify, like the Sky Skooter, some models of the Piper Cub, some early Luscombes and others of that ilk. These are relatively cheap to fly and to insure, since their hull value is lower then even a new sport airplane.Tony Vallillo

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Thanks Tony,I've had to look at tri-gear aircraft. At the moment, the insurance companies won't touch a zero time new Sport Pilot in a tailwheel aircraft. Since I originally wrote the thread, I have received a much fairer insurance quote, and emails from four CFI's who'd have no problems training me in an experimental homebuilt like the Zenith. I've also flown a Zenith XL so I have some experience in type and model before I evaluate someone else's Zenith. I am flying to the east coast at the end of the month, and while I am out there I will be looking at a Zenith for sale. I am taking things a step at a time and not rushing through training at the same pace as I did the first several weeks. I've since learned that there's many instructors who like to "early solo" pilots and I guess I would have soloed by now had I not opted out of my last couple of lessons for other, more personal reasons. Anyway, I will look at what the market offers in terms of aircraft I could fly before I decide whether to drop my training. I am not so keen on flying or even soloing that I'm willing to sacrifice the other things my family expects, like vacations, weekends, etc.... If I can find a "turnkey" aircraft (and I may very well have), I can save thousands in aircraft rental fees alone and self pace my training in the aircraft I will eventually fly as a pilot.What I am finding is the most prejudice towards homebuilts have come from flight schools that profit by renting "factory built" aircraft and acting as their sales agents. In my eyes that means they are first concerned with the business of selling or leasing an aircraft, vs. making me a safe pilot. Sure, Sport Pilot can be accomplished in 20 hours, and then one can pay 100K for a "Factory Built" version of a homebuilt costing a third the price. By investing in my own aircraft up front I can spend the money I would have spent on rental fees towards more time with a CFI. If I don't find "turnkey" aircraft available in the market, I've still had a blast, and I am still blessed that I have the money for other uses--a luxury many don't have and too many of us take for granted.-John Edit: I should note that the according to the NTSB database, the model and type Zenith I've been looking at has never had an accident caused by strutural failure. That speaks volumes about Chris's design and about the all metal aircraft in general.

[Guest DreamFleet]

John, I'm still wondering why you have not called me on the phone. ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Sorry Lou,I will try soon, but I've been getting home from the office a bit late and a bit tired in recent weeks due to several projects in progress. My wife has noted this as well, she had me skip last week's lesson and I'll probably due the same this week so I can get what little R&R I can on the weekend. -John

[Guest ron_b]

Hello John,I've seen you have created quite a bit of interest with your comments and I understand your frustration. I met lots of pilots who won't go back to get a physical because they are afraid they will fail or their doctors even said during the exam to leave and pretend you never come in and downgrade to a Sport Pilot license. Some non pilots are going the sports pilot route because they are afraid they might fail or just want to get started more quickly. Since you can get a sports pilot license for less then $4K and start flying with your friends, it makes a logical step on the pay to a private also.I understand the issue of renting, many flight schools have "not seen the light" concerning SLSA aircraft that they can rent. The who SLSA industry is just getting off the ground, and most companies are backlogged and ramping up on production. More planes are being added to the flight schools each week but it may take awhile. One new company is planning on building up to 600/year which is twice as much as the two top GA aircraft. So it's only a matter of time. You can buy an older piper cub or other aircraft that is "standard" category and can still be flown with a sports pilot license. These I'm sure would have insurance values of < 2K/year. Used SLSA will be on the market in the next year or so. Most just come out less than 1 year ago, so not ready to turn them over yet. My guess is the price of a 4 year old $85K SLSA will be about $50K. Ge two people to go in together and it's the price of a Harley but you go 130MPH on 5g/hr of fuel (i.e.20+ MPG).You can rent a new SLSA CH601 Zodiac in Phoenix area for $69/hr wet. This is less than old 152's cost and it has EFIS (glass display of horizon, airspeed, alt, etc) GPS moving map with XM weather/radio, NAV/COM/GS. I've flown this aircraft and it flys like a "real" aircraft, not an ultralight with as good or better cross wind capabilities and stressed for + - 6 g's. Insurance on a plane like this is < $2000, but your right the new price for the PHX dealer is $75K+. The O-200 engine cost over $20K by itself (same engine as C-150's used), so you add radio's and nav avionics and you can get to $90K.Check out this site for more info. I'm now flying with them. www.silverskyaviation.com/ They are just starting a rental club called "League of Extraordinary Aviators" and this they have some ex Air Force pilots and Airline pilots who are involved and offer a high level of training. I did some formation flying with them twice during the last month - just did a 3 ship formation last week. I was just riding since I like keeping 1/2 mile from the nearest aircraft instead of 1 wing span, but the AF pilot with me made it look easy.Feel free to email me directly if you have any specific questions on this industry.I hope you don't abandon your quest for flying.Ronron@sinda.com