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Disallusioned with AVSIM

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6 minutes ago, PilotPete99 said:

This is what I find particularly disturbing. Up until MSFS came along, most of us loved P3d, or perhaps another sim platform. Now that MSFS is here, P3d is suddenly trash? It really doesn’t make sense to me. It’s as if some folks are trying to make those of us who still enjoy P3d appear foolish. I honestly don’t understand it, but I certainly hope we can move past this type of behavior.

Cheers, Pete

To be fair, on avsim many users of others sims have been cheap shotting MSFS since its release.

'Gamers only',  'arcade', 'sightseeing-sim'. 'Xbox-crowd'. I am sure I missed a few creative slights.

This is not a story of one perpetrator and one victim. Both/all sides are guilty of this childish behavior.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, SAS443 said:

To be fair, on avsim many users of others sims have been cheap shotting MSFS since its release.

'Gamers only',  'arcade', 'sightseeing-sim'. 'Xbox-crowd'. I am sure I missed a few creative slights.

This is not a story of one perpetrator and one victim. Both/all sides are guilty of this childish behavior.

 

 

 

Agreed, and there is no place for that either. I can’t see how anything good comes from bashing other platforms, or what purpose this can possibly serve. I have both P3d and MSFS installed and use both depending upon the mood I’m in. I don’t see how we would ever be better off with less choices. The more options we have, the better it is for all of us.

Cheers, Pete


Pete Solov - Lake in the Hills 3CK

and Schaumburg Regional 06C
Proud AOPA Member - PPL 2001
Real World Piper Cherokee Pilot

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8 hours ago, Chock said:

In these instances, I find one is one's own best editor/moderator, in simply not bothering to respond to, or even read such posts about 'my sim is better than yours', as frankly such posts are very boring and even more childish most of the time, and even if they were not, they would still pretty much achieve nothing. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to skip the dull stuff and just check out the interesting and informed stuff on Avsim. And equally fortuitously, there are still many very knowledgeable people on the forums whose contributions in other matters are worth reading. It doesn't take long to determine who is worth ignoring.

As usual, you have hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, you, me, or whoever is being the editor, It is difficult to know (from just the title) who has initiated it.  It is very easy to create an interesting title (just ask Filou .... no disrespect here as this is just an example) to suck the readers in. 

What distresses me most though, is that the titles can be interesting and the thread also can be interesting, but it does seem to me, that more and more often, these topics quickly generate into the above mentioned sim vs sim debate which has already been debated many, many, many times beforehand.

I do think that Moderators should be encouraged to jump in very quickly, quietly remind the OPs that this subject or topic has already been covered (maybe even provide a link) and then close it down and to do it much quicker than it is done now.

I also feel that, apart from the Trollers, a very large proportion of AVSIM followers are all feeling this same repetitiveness is quietly and quickly doing a great deal of damage to our community, particularly for the less tolerant of us. It is creating an incredible level of ill-will and angst.

I just hope it will all stop eventually.

Regards

Tony

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Tony Chilcott.

 

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57 minutes ago, PilotPete99 said:

This is what I find particularly disturbing. Up until MSFS came along, most of us loved P3d, or perhaps another sim platform. Now that MSFS is here, P3d is suddenly trash? It really doesn’t make sense to me. It’s as if some folks are trying to make those of us who still enjoy P3d appear foolish. I honestly don’t understand it, but I certainly hope we can move past this type of behavior.

Cheers, Pete

Happened when FSX was released to FS9 users when P3D was released to FSX users, this is neither new nor exclusive to MSFS and P3D.  FS9/FSX was the most tumultuous I remember.  if you were on FS9 it was because you couldn't afford new Hardware for FSX.  Good times.  

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2 hours ago, DavidP said:

I guess you have to read it first to decide you don't like it, Bit like the chicken or the egg.

Possibly, but the devil in me has a better, or at least funny suggestion. How about having a new forum section entitled perhaps, 'Derail Junction', which topics could be moved to, but remain open to posts if they experience this phenomenon? That way we'd know whether or not to look at them, and they might then possibly redeem themselves with some deft literal elevator and rudder inputs from people anxious to keep them alive and to get them on back on course, at which point they could be then moved to the similarly newly-created 'Miraculous Last Second Go Around' forum section.

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Alan Bradbury

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Much like a TV , you DON'T  HAVE TO CLICK ON THESE POSTS..... IT'S all up to YOU....

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I do think some people are 'frontrunners'. They jump on the newest thing and like to let everyone know it. I currently fly all of the sims mentioned in this thread except P3D. Sometimes, I still have more fun from a flight in FS9 than the others. 

Some folks are defensive of their favorite sim, and I get it. But it's the people that pop in to tell you your sim is garbage is what irks me. And then there's the 'serious simmer' vs the rest of us. Same type of back and forth. I don't know that more moderation is going to help, but it is annoying seeing a thread derailed by this. 

I do understand we don't have to click on the thread, but if a good thread goes bad, it's not really fair to those who were enjoying it. 

 

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There are a lot of really fair points here. I've been around simming for decades and I have seen Sims come and go. The next greatest thing always generates excitement. Sometimes the next greatest thing sticks around, other times it fizzles away (FSW and Flight! are good examples of sims that have faded away like a bad fart).

Its tough when it comes to moderation as we don't want to be heavy handed when it comes to civil debate, but its also easy to see how a post can be totally derailed by someone who chimes in with XXX is better than YYY and ZZZ.

There is no easy solution to this problem and from an administrative point, we are darned if we do and darned if we don't.

But for the die-hards who say that their sim of choice is better than yours and are screaming it from the mountain top, ask yourself this: Are they trying to convince you, or are they trying to convince themselves? 

Best to just ignore it the best you can, and if something is out of hand or has spiraled out of context and/or civil decency please hit report and it will be addressed.

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Brian A. Neuman

 

Proud simmer since 1982 using the following simulators: Sublogic Flight Simulator 1 and 2. Microsoft Flight Simulator 4.0, 5.1, FS95, FS98, FS2000, FS2002, FS2004, FSX (and unfortunately Flight!). Terminal Reality Fly 1 and 2. Sierra Pro Pilot, Looking Glass/Eidos/Electronic Arts Flight Unlimited I, II and III, Laminar Research X-Plane 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, FS Aerofly 2, Lockheed Martin Perpar3D 2.X, 3.X, 4.X and 5.X and Microsoft Flight Simulator (2020). Not to mention numerous combat simulators and games related to flight that I have played with over the years.

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I do not care about MSFS one bit. I do  not use it and have no intentions of using it until it offers me something that I need and it offers me the payware airplanes that I need. Since I do not use it, I cannot debate its merits. Post here should stick to the topic at hand or start a new topic. Moderators should flag posts that do not do this.

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16 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

I read the forum less now as i get the impression that MSFS users want too see the demise of all other sims. 

I agree, there seems to be an endless stream of people predicting the demise of both X-Plane and Prepar3d. Most of these comments are not backed up with any facts or knowledge of the sims they are denigrating. Prepar3d isn't going anywhere because we desktop simmers are not the target market, we are a convenient extra cash flow for Lockheed. X-Plane isn't going anywhere, because Austin, rightly or wrongly doesn't see other sims as competition. X-Plane is his baby, a personal passion project that has grown into a top simulator. He is not going to abandon it.
Having been stung before, I tend to not keep all my eggs in one basket. I run MSFS, X-Plane and P3D. However, when you look at that list, there is only one company there that has abandoned it's user base, not once, but twice. 


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Bragging that "my sim p*sses farther than yours", so to speak, is nothing new in the flight simulation forum world. There is, unfortunately, an inherent impossibility (human nature) to have any lengthy technical discussion "sim vs sim" on a forum.. Avsim is generally vigilant to stop these threads to degenerate after a few interesting pages  into food fights.

What is new with MFS is the apparition of quack market analysts😄. Early on, even before release, they predicted the demise of the addon cottage industry, MFS was so beautiful, so complete, that no addon would be necessary. End of the story for the "greedy" developers. Of course the exact contrary happened and in a very large proportion.

Now they predict with the same repetitive tediousness (and I am afraid schadenfreude...) the demise of XP and P3D  led by idiots who don't understand the new world of simming that MFS has introduced us to. Truth or not, I have no crystal ball but it brings bad vibes to the MFS forum, with overflow to other forums, legitimately irritates simmers of the P3D or XP kind and attract trolls like flies to a t*rd. Spoiling the fun of others is rather unpleasant. 

Add to that the Asobo devotees or even a developer on the MS payroll that dismiss any critic of  MFS , as grumbling old men.

Moderation is a difficult job. I personally welcome the lighter touch that I have seen these recent months. In 2019, MFS threads were closed on whims of the moderator. I prefer to see Ray or Bob jump into a thread to tell their piece rather to have them close a thread. On the other hand, the bashing of "the other sim" (whatever it is)  should stop.

PS Just a reminder I fly only MFS - I love it which does not prevent me to be critical when needs be -  after flying P3D for years (that I loved too).  

Edited by Dominique_K
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Dominique

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It goes both ways. I have seen more "experienced" users, including moderators, repeatedly, say that MSFS is an arcade initiative meant to be used by (as they write) "X-Box gamers". Now that the big names are backing Flight Simulator in an unequivocally manner, those comments are a bit harder to find.

AVSIM has also lost some of its appeal for me as meaningful conversation and, especially, quality freeware content are available elsewhere nowadays. The historic hostility towards progress in the simulation market found in these boards, as seen with FSX, P3D, VR and now MSFS, are a contributing factor to this.

Edited by GCBraun
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I believe LM have performed excellent work with the advancement of the ESP source code which was the only reason I kept on with my hobby of flight simulation. Now that MSFS is part of the equation, I use both platforms equally, depending upon my needs for that session.

Edited by Peter Webber

Peter Webber

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2 hours ago, GCBraun said:

It goes both ways. I have seen more "experienced" users, including moderators, repeatedly, say that MSFS is an arcade initiative meant to be used by (as they write) "X-Box gamers". Now that the big names are backing Flight Simulator in an unequivocally manner, those comments are a bit harder to find.

AVSIM has also lost some of its appeal for me as meaningful conversation and, especially, quality freeware content are available elsewhere nowadays. The historic hostility towards progress in the simulation market found in these boards, as seen with FSX, P3D, VR and now MSFS, are a contributing factor to this.

This...  I also seem to remember lots of users AND Moderators talking (incorrectly) about what MSFS can't do, speculating on what it would never do, using the SDK argument as to why it will never progress, talking about how it will never support high fidelity add-ons, how 3 professional pilots say the flight dynamics are better in XXX sim than MSFS anyway. Here we are a year later with all the momentum in MSFS's court and frankly some people don't like it when they are wrong.  There are quite a few here who are so hell bent on P3D or XPlane they show up in every MSFS thread to continue to tell MSFS users they are wrong and the other sim is better.  And yes, this includes moderators and professional pilots chiming into the "My sim  is still better than yours because of XXX feature" conversation or MSFS will never do XXX conversation.  

Some mask this as "defending" their sim.  What utter garbage, who needs to "defend" a simulator.  If you like it, use it don't argue about it!

All of this doesn't mean anyone wishes the demise of another sim because they think MSFS is "better" for them, heck, I think MSFS is indeed the better platform right now but I still use P3D regularly.  I don't WISH for P3D to fail but I recognize the market trends that the developers are at this point confirming left and right and I WISH for the continued growth and expansion of MSFS unlike some here who would rather see MSFS die so they could brag about how right they were about Asobo/MSFS.  Lots of people here who would LOVE to be able to say "I told you so"  if Asobo failed for some reason.  

Now because I speak about MSFS's growth and adoption rates it must mean I want every other sim to die right?  Nope, wrong indeed...  Assumptions are a really risky foundation for formulating an opinion... 

In all honesty, I see more MSFS conversations in the MSFS forum hijacked by a certain group of users intent on STILL arguing their sim is better because of a feature MSFS doesn't have yet which transforms into why it's not a "real simulator" compared to P3D or X-Plane than anything else...  P3D forum seems to be more about 5.2, EA, Clouds, Performance etc etc and I don't frequent the X-Plane forums so can't speak to it but it's the threads in the MSFS forum itself I see being trolled the most... Most of these users trolling aren't even using MSFS they are just speculating.  At least when MSFS users talk about P3D it usually comes from using it for years instead of speculation. 

 

Edited by psolk
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22 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

I read the forum less now as i get the impression that MSFS users want too see the demise of all other sims. 

Just like P3D users were calling for the death of FSX. New sims seem to bring out almost religious levels of fervour and intolerance. I can't help wondering how happy someone can really be with what they have if they spend a lot of their energy slagging off or calling for an end to the alternatives.

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