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[Guest AOA]

ScottThere is a lot of wisdom in your post and most of it I have adopted over the years and it has made me a more satisfied simmer.There are two points that I take issue with though the first of which is "don

[n4gix 4,947]

> Also I must also defend the companies regarding refunds. I>think they would offer refunds if not 1. The nature of the>products, which you should be aware before purchase of the>refund policy or done research on reviews and customer>response of what you are purchasing.>> And 2. You have to admit that there is a pretty bad piracy>issue in this hobby.I don't think either of those are valid reasons for not allowing refunds...If anyone wants any particular payware release for FREE, they'll simply look for and find it from any of the plethora of pirate websites and/or torrent streams...I don't believe that there are many - if ANY - folks who'll go through the trouble to buy a release, then request a refund as a viable method for "stealing" the product. It's just too much WORK and besides, it is risky! ;)"One dissatisfied customer will negate thousands of dollars in advertising!"How many folks post "I got ripped off" type posts in proportion to the one's who post "I am very satisfied"?I'm convinced that the one thing in the universe that can actually exceed the speed of light is "bad news..."

[Guest]

This entire topic also corresponds to the Nvidia vista driver fiasco as well. On one side you have the people like me that are angry that they were promised a vista ready card that is anything but vista ready and on the other side you have the apologists that say we should all just cut them a break because it's a new os, new architecture, blah blah blah. My take on this is that if you are selling a product then it should work as advertised or you shouldn't be selling it. Either don't market that it has these features or don't sell it. Nvidia should and maybe will get sued for this as should any other company that falsely advertises its products. Consumers should not have to deal with this and frankly are tired of getting the shaft. If this means that a corporation needs to close its doors because of these problems, or that a future budding entrepreneur decides not to make that after market add-on because he is not certain he can do it as advertised then this is probably a good thing as I see it.________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 @ 893Mhz | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 575/900 | Seagate 2x 320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

[Scott434 12]

Pete,I did not mean don't be a "Beta Tester". I meant don't be a beta tester as a consumer. Beta Testers are very much needed in the domain of software development.All,BTW, I started coding in "C" in 1990. Migrated to "C++" which I loved. Mostly embedded systems (sonar, telecommunications). I have since retired from coding. One of my biggest frustrations was seeing product pushed out the door before it is ready. That is the reality of biz sometimes. Meeting Deadlines, market pressures, contractual obligations etc. and the consequences of poor quality are weighed against each other. It is a well know fact in software development world, that the the longer it takes to find and fix bugs the more costly they are to the organization both in terms of money and reputation.As mentioned above. Many of these "companies" are not professional software developers who are frankly over there head and simply do not know how to develop, produce and support a commercial product. When they do realize what is involved (often too late), they do not have the resources or commitment/desire to successfully conclude the project (or are off on another direction like FSX1). That is where the consumer frustration comes in.All this means is that we as consumers need to be more vigilant in our buying decisions. We need to see evidence that the product we are interested has in fact

[Guest AOA]

Scott"I did not mean don't be a "Beta Tester". I meant don't be a beta tester as a consumer. Beta Testers are very much needed in the domain of software development"Yep I knew what you meant.I`m just saying that first day consumers should get better than what they do get and it`s the responsibility of the deveoloper(regardless of their rescouces)to make sure that it happens from the day of release.I accept that there will be bugs but Jeez how much slack should be given to the same deveolopers time and time again.Pete

[Guest AOA]

Pat"I for one really enjoyed all of the FeelThere products - a month or two after the release! What else is new?"If they want to serve the community and generate trust and goodwill would`nt it prudent to work on their projects for that month or two longer to ensure if not bugfree then a product that is more polished than what we see today.The dynamics of the development/distribution don`t matter to the rank and file simmer as what really counts is the end result.that is the heart of the problem.Pete

[neil0311 366]

EDIT...thought twice

[boshar 6]

>I remember when I was a kid, and when a new video game came>out I would enjoy it for what it was, a piece of entertaining>software. At the moment I'm in to reliving the past with an old Commodore64 emulator and play the games I originally bought back then.Like:Project Stealth Fighterhttp://www.lemon64.com/index.php?mainurl=h...php%3FID%3D2004Gunshiphttp://www.lemon64.com/index.php?mainurl=h...php%3FID%3D1123Flight Simulator IIhttp://www.lemon64.com/index.php?mainurl=h...php%3FID%3D3176Sure they where not real. But they delivered fun and some of the things you did in them looked a little bit like the real world thing. If we would have had common internet access back then we could have discussed how unreal it all was and how it was just crappy and expensive. We didn't back then we just had fun playing the game.Its all just a game folks. Read some of those old adverts. They already promised 'as real as it gets' back then. Try to have fun and don't take it to serious

[aerdt 0]

I completely agree with you. However, 1000 eyes on the product will produce 1000 times more feedback than just a handful of eyes.Let's face it: Beta testing has become a free trial period where you can use a program freely before the release. I would bet that less than 20% of the beta testers provide any feedback.I am not justifying a flawed release. Of course, there are many unresolved issues and bugs that are too obvious to miss, but I can list on top of head a dozen releases that were riddled by the similar issues and bugs in the past.Pat

[Guest dwaohio]

I think the flightsim community have become sheep following developers aimlessly to slaughter. We do not put the developers to the task. We keep buying the products and complain. How about this how fast will developer stop puting out beta products for finished products if no one buys there product. I know for certain that some developers place products on the market early to start collecting money so they can finish the product because they ran out of capital or they want to start a new one. Others use beta tester that aren't quilified and they are used because it is free labor. There is no standard testing method. Beta tester have no experience. If you never flown in the aircraft for real how do you know what is right. There is no blackbox where beta testers can comapare it to the real aircraft. Developers also think they can impress us with eye candy vs functioning aircraft. They show us pictures on the ads and we go crazy. We look at the pictures and fall in love with the aircraft. What I would rather see is real figures in how it compares to the real aircraft. Some developer give their aircraft to a pilot of the real aircraft but thay never flew sims and tell them to try it. He flies the plane and it gets off the ground. He flies around awhile he says to himself that feels good not knowing the capability of the flightsim or anything about the flightsim. Now developers say it was tested by a real pilot.What we need is standardised test pilots who are who know both flightsim and aircraft they are testing. We also need tools that can be used by the test pilots. The flightsim community can not be sheep and except these developers excuses and yes the flightsim will die. Or we can be stand up and say no more of this. No more razzle dazzle eye candy show us the proof this aircraft is airworthy and as close to the real as flightsim allows and has been tested by quilfied flightsim test pilot and not by the developers friend or unqulified real pilot. This is what will make flightsim grow and advance.

[Mike T 208]

"Where are the people prasing the first release of an Airbus that we've seen in years? Where are the people commending Wilco for FS9 and FSX compatibility? Where are the people giving FeelThere an "atta boy" for releasing an excellent manual? Where are the people praising the fairly low pricetag for 3 aircraft models?"You're expecting that just because something is released it should be commended regardless of its state. That's not the way it works.That is to say that just because you showed up at work, your boss should tell you that you are doing a great job even if you have totally botched the work you are tasked to do! Or because you took three years to paint a picture you should be told how great it is no matter how horrible it looks. It doesn't work that way.Respect is EARNED and not a god given right. Remember the saying that the "road to H@ll is paved with good intentions?" Well, Feelthere, PSS, Microsoft, et al may mean well and that's great, but meaning well really doesn't mean anything when the end result is not desirable.And then comes the argument that "its only $50". HUH? Okay, well taking the bus here in Chicago only costs $2. However if I pay my $2 and am promised that the bus will take me 5 miles, but in actuality the bus only goes 1/2 mile in total ignorance of what I was promised when I boarded the bus should I shrug it off and say well its only $2 and walk 4 1/2 miles? Heck, I spend $2 on a candybar, what you you complaining about?I would then suppose that the person who complains that the bus driver has chosen to not provide the service as promised is a whining crybaby because he only spent $2 and should happily walk the rest of the 4 1/2 miles and furthermore is to blame for not spending $40 on a cab? That situation would be as ridiculous as someone saying that one only paid $50 what do you expect? I just don't get it.Similary, if the bus is late driving those 5 miles, so be it, its the real world and nothing is perfect. However, irrespective of the price, if the bus is not even going to do what I paid for, then the service was not provided and I have every right to complain.In any respect, thank GOD for the "whiners" and "crybabys" that raised enough of a protest to send Aces back to aggresively provide patches for FSX. If left to the "everything is great, its only $50, be happy, the glass is always half full, lets all hug and sing kumbiyah", we'd be stuck with FSX at 10 FPS until 2009."In the case of FeelThere/Wilco: Sure, it's disappointing, but that's just the way it is. They release a product with bugs, which will be consequtively fixed with 1 to 3 service releases."It is clear that you are resigned to accept mediocrity, and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't insult those who totally refuse the status quo. Just ask people like Galleleo, Einstein, Edison, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr, etc. Instead of accepting "that's the way it is", they rejected that and changed things...otherwise we'd live in a flat, dark, slavefilled world at the center of the universe.

[Scott434 12]

Mike T,Bingo - Please come up to claim your prize.What I find more and more these days is that the concept of honest, fair accountability is dwindling from the masses at an incredible and alarming rate.If you are a developer (including the MSFS folks), then, I for one don

[MD83 1]

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a mouthpiece in the building :-lol>In my opinion all of you who have responded to Jason's post>thus far have completely missed the point.>>His post is not about dealing with developers over technical>issues, product bugs, features advertised but not delivered,>or other specific user issues that may be causing difficulties>using a product.>>The point of his post is that EVERYONE is getting tired of all>the cry babies and whiners that post their personal problems>in these forums. Many of you say one thing and then another. >You say you realize software is not perfect and then you>complain that a product didn't meet your expectations. What>rubish!>>Here is what I suggest. STOP using emotional arguments about>developer products and start providing specific explanations>of product issues. Instead of crying about some developer who>didn't deliver a fuel planner, just make a statement that the>developer stated in his or her advertising that a planner>would be part of the package and indicate it was not in the>initial release. Most of us are smart enough to realize that>something is amiss without you shouting to the rooftops that>you feel cheated. Unless I'm mistaken I would believe>that,for example, PSS is certainly working on the fuel planner>and will get it out as soon as possible - PERIOD!>>And one more thing - if you haven't taken up a problem you're>having with a specific product with the developer then don't>say anything. As far as I'm concerned you don't deserve any>helpful responses from folks who regularly try to help people>in these forums.>>Many, many, many people who constantly complain and whine>about products don't know how to use them, don't read the>documentation, don't try to work out problems with developers,>and believe they should be spoon-fed automatic solutions. I>see in these forums statements about Vista, FSX, DX10, Dual>Core CPUs, and the like. For the most part, these people have>expectations that products like these are perfect, have no>bugs, and they wonder why things are not simpler. Every thing>in the computer industry these days is complicated and not>every system that runs these products is going to perform as>well as your own personal expectations.>>It is not a developer problem that you don't have a system>powerful enough to run today's software. It is not the>developer's fault that you can't afford enough memory or a new>graphics card. It is not the developer's fault that you don't>understand how an operating system works or the difficulties>involved in providing an OS that works with the tons of>software out there. Get a grip people.>>NOTE: This post does not apply to those who interface with>developers properly to solve problems or to understand how>things work. I for one greatly appreciate folks who post>product reviews or user product impressions - WITHOUT>EMOTIONS.>>fb.. I could be wrong :)

[Guest dwaohio]

Yes, I am wondering calling people crybabies and all kinds of names. I am wondering how much vested interest they have in any product that they jump in and try to discredit the people making the complaints. All the statement from the people making the complaints is mostly factual and civil. The people on the other side of the debate are forced to name calling and belittling statements. Also does people who don't care if the product does not work most be rich so they can keep buying products that don't work or they must have a vested interest in the product.Another issue are reviews. I don't trust reviews from a web site that also either sells the product or the company advertises on it. I think that is a complete conflict of interest. Second what are the qualifications of the reviewer. Are they pilots in real life. Have they flown a similar aircraft in real life. Are they qulified to understand aerodynamics. Most of the reviews I read is how nice the aircraft looks and how good the panel looks. They are are nice but what I want to know is the fact about the plane how it handles compared to the real thing. Things I want to know how it handles in slow flight, stall recovery etc. Things that matter to the consumer. My 10 year old daughter can get on here and look at the plane and say that looks good daddy. I think there should be a standard form each reviewer should go through for each plane and how the aerodynamic work.Please readers and Avsim take this in the spirit it was wriiten. I want to further the flight simulation in the future.

[aerdt 0]

Mike: I agree with you on most points amd we're surely 95% of the time on the same page. However, if I started complaining about all the little things in life that do not please me, I would never have the time for anything else.Where does a valid complaint start? If the bus shows up 5 mins late, when food is too salty, too spicy, too cold? When the clerk doesn't look at me with a smile? When my Tivo skips a recorded show? We're talking about a piece of insignificant entertainment here, not civil rights, wars, famine or poverty and we should treat it as such.Sure, I have raised my concerns, but I think that a lot of people are taking this way beyond any rationality by threatening developers with lawsuits and act like the world came tumbeling down, because a switch in a virtual cockpit doesn't trigger the correct response.Back at Wilco: We complained already upon the last release about poor download times, inconsistent support and bugs. What has changed since the last time? Nothing. What other options are there, instead of pushing the "ignore" button?Yes, I have resigned to mediocrity, because otherwise I could not type this from a buggy OS, with buggy drivers, buggy software, incomplete manuals and abysmal support options.Let's just wait upon the next release from Ariane or Captain Sim and the trail of whining will continue all over, just like nothing ever happened before. People will be shocked, angry and disappointed.I just want to hear a story about one developer of FS add-ons who managed to turn things around and who turned from being just plain mediocre to excellence. At present, none comes to my mind.The only option to vote is with your wallet.Pat