MSFS has never been RELIABLE

[HiFlyer 9,343]

6 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

You’re missing the point.  They want it to run on x box for the games. And apply the same poor arcade style flight dynamics to both. 

So.....

How exactly are you factoring their close cooperation with Working Title, Aerosoft, PMDG,  Flybywire and others into this dark theory?

[in2tech 588]

It appears the OP has had issue's with actually running the sim, as some others have for some reason, since the release. He is the only one that knows if this is true? Every sim, that I am aware of, can be flown with the most simplistic piece of hardware that every PC has. A mouse and a keyboard when they are installed. Which Real aircraft is flown with a keyboard and mouse? Like we use them? ( Yes I know FMC/FMS's have key's for input ) But didn't people use them in the first versions of flight simulator? Sorry only got into it in 2009 with FSX. And I flew it with a keyboard and mouse and it stunk so went out the next day and got a cheap joystick, with No twist.

It has nothing to do with the Xbox Controller cause he will never use one. It's about the performance he is getting, or it hasn't matured to his liking, and may never do so, if he wants it exactly like the other sims? I have no clue, but he does.

Many people use flight sim's with ONLY a joystick with twist and nothing else. No HOTAS, No Pedals, etc... but they can still fly them. Not as realistic as others but they can.

And bottom line, Mouse and Keyboard are always a horrible option. But a ton of brand new simmers, only had that option at first, some left cause it sucked, others went on forums, etc... and asked for controller advice. Also, reason a lot of people never stick with flight simulation as opposed to say sim's/games meant for what they have already, keyboard and mouse. I have American Truck Simulator and didn't stick with it cause I wouldn't buy a steering wheel 🙂 Fortnite, Call Of Duty, Farm Simulator, Train Simulator, and a million other titles are played with keyboard, as far as I know.

I hope the actual performance of the sim gets fixed for all the thousands of different PC's out there. Doubt it will happen. Hasn't for other sim's! Some people just have issues with the sim and hardware getting along, no matter the sim!

Edited July 29, 2021 by in2tech

[scotchegg 4,168]

34 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

Trying to defend MSFS users who are now convinced by MS that rather than using a yoke and pedals to mimic flying an airplane, a push button x-box controller is now on the same level. 

That is....not at all what I said.

You're conflating flight dynamics / model with the device used to manipulate controls. The two are not necessarily related. I don't think anyone's claiming that just because MSFS offers the ability to use an Xbox controller, it's possible to fly a plane with the same fidelity that you can using bespoke controllers like yokes / rudder pedals etc., which seems to be the claim you're fighting.

[Chock 17,769]

31 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

You’re missing the point.  They want it to run on x box for the games. And apply the same poor arcade style flight dynamics to both. 

And you know this because?

31 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

Sad times for the true simulator users here. 

You seriously think PMDG, Milviz etc would be on board with a sim which had that road map?

PMDG's boss actually said this today: 'the PMDG 737 for MSFS is preparing to enter the testing environment', not forgetting we also have that Fenix A320 on the way with plenty of preview videos of it out there already, and we already have the PMDG DC-6 available, and the Aerosoft CRJ, which although not super-duper 'studyish', are nevertheless very complex and not even that pricey either.

 And frankly, the notion that all XBox players can be easily fobbed off with simplistic arcade simulations of physics, is incredibly condescending toward them. As far as I'm aware, most gamers are pretty serious about their hobby, you only have to look at how complex some RPGs are to know that. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Chock

[Sigwolf 222]

20 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

You’re missing the point.  They want it to run on x box for the games. And apply the same poor arcade style flight dynamics to both. 

Some yokes don’t even cut it, as far as ‘feeling’ the same. So I’m not sure how a x box controller with its baby joysticks and push buttons can. 
 

No wonder some say MSFS is nothing more then an arcade game for the gamers. Sad times for the true simulator users here. 
 

You're either trolling badly, or clearly missing the point yourself.  The method of control input has nothing to do with whether the software being controlled is a sim.  By your logic, there are no sims of any kind on PC, because they can all be configured to be controlled by an X Box controller.  Every flight sim, including X-Plane and P3D, can be controlled with an X-Box controller, so they must not be sims.  Every racing sim, including Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, Automobilista 2, and iRacing, can be controlled by an X Box controller, so they must not be sims, either.  MSFS does not require you to use an X Box controller, so you are free to pretend they don't exist.

[177B 730]

I think it is great that you can use an entry level to get into this sim.

This does not make the sim worse, it makes it more scalable.

This is a great thing.

As far as flight model goes. I sent about an hour today doing steep turns and stalls in the 172. It is really good. Much better than the Xplane 172's I have flown. Pretty amazing for a vanilla model that comes with the sim/game.

I am a commercial pilot and I also fly drones and conventional models commercially for video production companies. And I will tell you that the controller for radio control planes helis and drones are very close to xbox controllers. And I can fly FPV in those and perfectly control the models, they are real aircraft and actually harder to fly than full size planes and helis.

So criticizing controllers is just silly in my opinion. I actually use an xbox controller in the sim for the "drone cam" when making videos in the sim, it works great. 

Would I use the controller instead of my Alpha Beta or Hotas controllers or my very expensive pedals, no. But I think it is great that you can experience this fantastic sim inexpensively. I don't see why that is bad.

I have never seen a sim develop this fast and this well. I think XP diehards and P3D etc diehards are just jealous at all the exposure and press about FS2020. It is revolutionary and they can't admit it.

I have been simming almost as long as I have flown real planes (since the early 70's) and I have used about every sim there is and was. Currently I use only FS2020, a year ago I used Xplane and P3D. To me that says it all, FS2020 is hands down the current leader in my opinion.

[JBDB-MD80 1,470]

2 minutes ago, Sigwolf said:

You're either trolling badly, or clearly missing the point yourself.  The method of control input has nothing to do with whether the software being controlled is a sim.  By your logic, there are no sims of any kind on PC, because they can all be configured to be controlled by an X Box controller.  Every flight sim, including X-Plane and P3D, can be controlled with an X-Box controller, so they must not be sims.  Every racing sim, including Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, Automobilista 2, and iRacing, can be controlled by an X Box controller, so they must not be sims, either.  MSFS does not require you to use an X Box controller, so you are free to pretend they don't exist.

I flew the PMDG 737 and 777 on fsx with a logictech flight pad (actually had some pretty good landing with it) just to see if it was possible. Sure nuff even did it on P3Dv3 and tried X-Plane 10 with a controller to nothing stopped me from doing it.

[OneOfMany 314]

"Some yokes don’t even cut it, as far as ‘feeling’ the same. So I’m not sure how a x box controller with its baby joysticks and push buttons can." 

That is akin to saying some cannot create great art with photoshop when they only use a mouse, as opposed to a pressure sensitive stylus and tablet

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by OneOfMany

[jpe828 624]

I don't generally like to participate in these flame threads, but I have to agree on this. No other game I play, do I wonder if I will get a CTD, or messed up performance... or visual glitches. Also, no other game, including top tier titles do I get such poor frame rates. Yet, I do love the sim... and have spent WAY too many hours using it lol. And I will continue to. After I do a fresh install (8 hours in) because for some reason the update completely screwed up my sim.... reliable no, pretty cool when it works, yes. 

[jpe828 624]

8 minutes ago, 177B said:

I think it is great that you can use an entry level to get into this sim.

This does not make the sim worse, it makes it more scalable.

This is a great thing.

As far as flight model goes. I sent about an hour today doing steep turns and stalls in the 172. It is really good. Much better than the Xplane 172's I have flown. Pretty amazing for a vanilla model that comes with the sim/game.

I am a commercial pilot and I also fly drones and conventional models commercially for video production companies. And I will tell you that the controller for radio control planes helis and drones are very close to xbox controllers. And I can fly FPV in those and perfectly control the models, they are real aircraft and actually harder to fly than full size planes and helis.

So criticizing controllers is just silly in my opinion. I actually use an xbox controller in the sim for the "drone cam" when making videos in the sim, it works great. 

Would I use the controller instead of my Alpha Beta or Hotas controllers or my very expensive pedals, no. But I think it is great that you can experience this fantastic sim inexpensively. I don't see why that is bad.

I have never seen a sim develop this fast and this well. I think XP diehards and P3D etc diehards are just jealous at all the exposure and press about FS2020. It is revolutionary and they can't admit it.

I have been simming almost as long as I have flown real planes (since the early 70's) and I have used about every sim there is and was. Currently I use only FS2020, a year ago I used Xplane and P3D. To me that says it all, FS2020 is hands down the current leader in my opinion.

Stimulating more interest in aviation is always a good thing. 

[neil0311 366]

3 hours ago, TASCHMANN said:

 We have seen this so many times before...the hype campaign about the "huge performance enhancement” which is just another in the long line of  graphics downgrades that try to present that illusion.

We have seen the broken features which we are advised simply not to use e.g. AI traffic, multiplayer.

We are advised which files to dig out and edit so that our changes in settings will actually be saved.

We are told that for best results while flying, try  not to look too quickly to the left or right so as to accommodate the shortcuts that were taken to squeeze out a few more fps (in some cases)

After almost a year or so it is now clear, to me at least, that this will never be the sim I had hoped for.  It is, was and remains...a "toy plane game" that actually works some of the time …for a few minutes at a time… at a level that struggles to approach FS2000 in terms of reliability.  It has been little else than a year long study in frustration.

For those who remain optimistic, I have a question:  How is it possible to create a full featured sim where the planes can be controlled with an Xbox controller?

How can the future be bright for a “sim” that continually downgrades the ONLY thing that makes it worth considering  (graphics) in an effort to some day get the basic features found in every other serious sim (P3D, XP11, DCS) to work?

One of those features has never been present in this “game” because it clearly doesn’t seem to be a priority these developers…reliability. 

With no reliability at all, the best we can hope for is a vehicle to test our patience. Are more of those needed in the world?

Obviously, you are the foremost expert in your opinion.  So I can’t dispute or comment on your opinion.

But I can tell you mine, and I’m not having the same issues. My experience is pretty good. And for the 17 years I’ve been a member of these forums (albeit a relatively passive one), there is always a group of people who feels let down and wanted the equivalent of a professional simulator that you can log time on.

Software is complex. Software that tries to replicate the entire world and provide an immersive experience of flight in relatively accurate models is very complex. The matrix of user hardware, software configurations, and technical experience is huge. No one can make perfection for $100.

I think some of you need to go to the local airport, take an intro flight with a CFI, and find the elusive reality you want. 

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

The focus on XBox controllers is a bit silly. In reality the current XBox controller is just a more exaggerated version of the short notchy unrealistic combat Hotas setups that people seem to love.

If it turns out people want to play the game with a controller and it is not up to the task someone will just design a better controller with a bigger more refined stick function.  If there is a market for a better XBox controller more suited to sims someone will market one eventually, that is just how things work.

 

[DeepestRed 214]

48 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

Sad times for the true simulator users here. 

I think you mean true Scotsman.

 

50 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

So I’m not sure how a x box controller with its baby joysticks and push buttons can. 

Ah yes, "baby joysticks" are a totally unrealistic way of controlling physical flying objects.

 

You know, I really don't care if people hate the state of the sim, and what they perceive MS/Asobo doing, however flawed those perceptions may be.  Folks have a right to feel however they feel, and I can't begrudge them that.  I just wish so many of the people making those arguments here didn't come across as both and condescending and word not allowed at the same time.

It's unfortunate.

 

[HiFlyer 9,343]

8 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

The focus on XBox controllers is a bit silly. In reality the current XBox controller is just a more exaggerated version of the short notchy unrealistic combat Hotas setups that people seem to love.

If it turns out people want to play the game with a controller and it is not up to the task someone will just design a better controller with a bigger more refined stick function.  If there is a market for a better XBox controller more suited to sims someone will market one eventually, that is just how things work.

 

https://www.turtlebeach.com/pages/velocity-one-flight

[HiFlyer 9,343]

And again, a double post....

Edited July 29, 2021 by HiFlyer