New Expansion Pack From Microsoft later this year

[Pete S 7]

>This is getting ridiculous,>>Not only did MSFT brought us such a horrible half baked>simulator , they also now trying to shove their addons down>our throats.>>this doesnt come by surprise though.. i bet they've been>analyzing the addon market for a long time and now decided to>join it.>Lets just hope this addon package doesn't come close to the>default aircraft modelling Yes.... it is just terrible!....All these MS representatives on my lawn, breaking down my front door forcing their addon's down my throat, while I'm trying to finish baking their "horrible sim"!:-roll Pete S.

[Guest heinzwerner]

I bought the FSX in October 2006 and invested 300 EUR additional on an High Performance Video card for it. Now 5 months later the Engines of my Simulators (FS9 and FS10) are mostly off since Cristmas 2006. I started with Bruce Artwicks initial FS in 1983 and was amazed in this Time for many Hours and months. But most of the M$ Improvements since then were Improvements on Eye candy and most of the time the interfaces stayed too worse documented and so many of others (and also my my) work on Scenery addons and Aircrafts was often lost again latest in the overnext Simulator version. Too much time to spend on research with the Comunity was lost since then in exploration on things that were not realy necessarry and some years later outdated (Thanks again here to Frank Moldenhauer who develloped a remarkable Scenery compiler in the 90th that is still working for FS9). But the most disappointing thing I've seen in this 23 Years was the FSX. Many posters have beated this product in the last months but the only remarkable Reactions from the official M$ Publications was to ignore that Critism on basically Problems and to look forward on new Announcements like the new Trainsimulator based on the still unacceptable FSX-Engine or "Adrenaline" that makes no improvements to the actual FSX Situation.So again the new Anouncement from the FS-Insider team now increases only my Adrenaline of frustration. The essential Homework ist the SP1 and surely not the Announcement of new Products or nebulous Additions.Aces from M$, if you can read me here then you should recognize that my trust in your Simulator products is meanwhile nearly at zero now. Since 20 Years I'm waiting now on a more realistic Aircraft Simualtion (try to stall in a too narrow curve radius and compare to a real plane if you want to see the fundamental Difference) since ten Years im'm waiting now on a improvement of your contemporary Illumination model (you may remember to this if the very high pushed Expectations for the DirextX10 patch may get visible foy you anywhen) that is now since long time outdated in the 3D-gamers Simulation model world, and since at least 5...10 years I'm waiting now on a better Support for Addon Designers with Tools that will not need a large learning Curve because they are made for Professinals like I.E. GMAX that is additional horrible interfaced to the Simulator. Insteadod the Merchandising Targets for commercial Addons get more and more on the Focus of M$.I'm still looking on Alternatives. Meanwhile I explored the exciting supported Addon community of the TrainZ world and my Motorbike is ongoing replacing my Dreams for Freedom and Speed of the FS in the last 6 Months. Time is running or my Acceptance to the M$ Product.Now in the 21th century the Computers an the SW would be able to simulate and visualize perfectly what was approximately not the case at Bruce Artwicks Computer World of the ending 70ts and his visionary Product but the Targets of M$ seems to be elsewhere more on Steve Balmers line. But one of the frustrating thing I've recognized from M$ in the last years was that most of the ACES Team Members from M$ did not get the Chance to get high expired with Fligth Simulation. Too many of them are only working for one Release on the Team and so often their Knowledge and experience was lost again after finising of one Release. Instead of the Product Managers seems to be too much under pressure for near targets and too much Ideas and Innovations are constantly lost on the near marked Targets. If somebody thinks that I'm only whining here then - yes, but please also respect that my time on this planet is limited and one of my dreams from younger Years was to fly without the necessety of doing this on a Real Plane. I'm only expired in flying of small Delta Hangglider for some years but this is not longer possible for me and so the real flying world stays very limited for me.Regards Heinz-Werner (Germany)

[Guest Peter Wilding]

Yes Bryan,So much for ACES are now supporting developers. I've not found that at all and none of my team/partners have been approached by ACES to give us any support. People like Damian Clark from Active Sky are my partners. And no support at all.ACES are now going in to competition with developers in one way or another.Also, Bryan it could easily mean we have to produce two versions of some things. It could also mean some things we are working on, especially on a more ambitious scale could be out done by ACES.ACES are clearly going in to the area of Multiplayer expansion so this would make it a dangerous thing for developers to try to expand.The multi-player side of things is potentially very exciting for developers with larger teams like myself. With the competition now being the owner of the platform, i.e. ACES owning FSX means any work we do that is considered a threat to them could end up being attacked by them.All developers know there are lots of areas close to infringing the EULA. One aspect the FSX EULA clearly states is. "you cannot work around any technical limitations of the software" Technically this means any aircraft we make or anything that is some clever way works around a technical limitation (this means just about anything )can at the mercy of ACES be stopped in it's tracks.ACES are now playing with a loaded dice in their favor.The war in some aspect has now started and in some ways this reminds me of the fact Adolph a really bad dude just before the world war got on the front page of magazines for talking about world peace and convincing some people to diss arm.Now we have ACES saying they are now supporting the community and also the developers.Their actions though are not suggesting this either from my knowledge or experience.First they now have their own FSinsider which is obviously a first step towards making us change our FS home page from Avsim to FSinsider. Next step is to get the confidence of it's users. Convince everyone they are on our side both developers and users.Time will tell but I would think perhaps for the first time in FS history we'll see a lot of efforts from developers stopped by ACES and a lot of clever workarounds with program like FS Navigator that put a program inside FSX will be considered a Work around a technical limitation.Let's hope ACES do not try and get a monopoly but common sense suggests that's the longer term goal that's coming and let's face it; Microsoft have always worked this way in the longer run. They eat everything up that others try to develop. Even Apple Mac is half owned by Microsoft.My personal view is only my personal view and please don't think any of what I say is a predetermined deal.I could be pleasantly surprised to find I'm wrong about some of this?Peter

[Guest Carl Hackman]

Just wondering when the alledged 'talking to the FS Addon Developer Community' will actually take place or is it M$'s idea that they should just go for the monopoly of all things FS.Neither Damian, Peter or I have ever spoken to an Aces representative about development of future enhancements to FS or of any architecture changes due to the upcoming SP1 or Adrenaline so I'm just wondering who have they spoken to.I wonder what architecture SP1 and Adrenaline will change to break current or soon to be released addons. Looks like this is going to be a very interesting 12 months and I think support issues will be a significant drain on our resources whenever they think up some new idea to generate more interest in FSX.Our team will be watching the next few months with great interest

[Guest LeeWang]

Oh my :-eekWe need "Damage Control" here.... Mr LAdamson we need you ;-)Lee

[757FO 143]

Peter,You have made a few good points, but somehow I cannot imagine ACES aiming for monopoly; The resource required to support this goal would be tremendous. Let's think about how many good paywares we have out there;GEPRO, ACtiveSky,Dreamfleet, PMDG, LevelD, PSS, etc (and the list goes on)... I just can't see ACES being able to deliver quality products such as yours, they have much on their plate, SP1, DX10, TrainSim, FS11, etc....ACES is reading the forum, so let's hope this can be resolved behind the scene and get you guys up and running, I personally can't wait to see how GEPRO is going to look like in FSX :) Thanks to all developers out there making our hobby the way it is today!!!Happy landings,John

[slashed2 53]

Yeah, where is he. Shame this company M$ always wants to make money, I thought they released FS for charity. Shame on them for trying to make a profit by creating new missions and aircraft on their own software. They should do it for free just like all the 3rd party developers.Oh, wait, they make money as well. Shame on them too, whining about all the hard work they put into a product and the long hours etc. and having the gaul to charge 39.99 for a complex, realistic rendition of a 737. Dispicable is all I can say. Let's start adding $ to these 3rd party vendors as well. Real Air $imulations, PMDG$ or Eagle$oft. How dare they charge money for their work.I just don't get the vitriol towards Microsoft and the Aces team. They say the expansion pack will not effect 3rd party development yet people see a conspiracy that MS will stop all 3rd party development. They add a few new aircraft and all of a sudden they're going to halt all aircraft add-ons. It makes no sense.And to compare MS to a really bad dude? Come on, that's a litte below the belt. They are a business, the main objective of a business is to make money, a corporation makes money for the stockholders and employees. MS employs thousands of people, most of which have families who depend on a paycheck just like the rest of us. They may be aggressive but they are similar to nearly every corporation in the world in the quest for money and profit.Aces seems proud of the mission aspect in FS and they want to promote it. I see nothing wrong with that, but I guess others see it as a monopoly over 3rd party development. Only time will tell I guess.Ian.Waiting for the brown shirts from M$ to take me away.

[LAdamson 240]

>Oh my :-eek>>We need "Damage Control" here.... >>Mr LAdamson we need you ;-)>Yes, I've been reading this baloney all morning, and thinking bla,bla,bla..... :-lol A bunch of testimonials from specific circumstances, as to why FSX doesn't work for them. Then you go to an X-Plane forum, and it's all about why FS9 suppose-ably s-u-c-k's in comparison. Personally, I'm not a real X-Plane fan, but once again, it's because of my "specific circumstances".As I've said before.......I see benchmarks in FSX that appear to be unachievable in FS9, and visa-versa. I'll continue to use both at the present, and the only reason my FSX copy will gather dust, is because it isn't required in the hard drive! :7 L.AdamsonBTW- who cares about old fashioned FMC's.:-lol We see the "first's" in GA anyway. Items such as detailed moving map GPS, XM Satellite uplinked weather, and now detailed glass panels for the PFD & MFD. But slowly, over time, they finally make their way into airliner cocpits.

[neil0311 366]

>>This is getting ridiculous,>>>>Not only did MSFT brought us such a horrible half baked>>simulator , they also now trying to shove their addons down>>our throats.>>>>this doesnt come by surprise though.. i bet they've been>>analyzing the addon market for a long time and now decided>to>>join it.>>Lets just hope this addon package doesn't come close to the>>default aircraft modelling >>Yes.... it is just terrible!....All these MS representatives>on my lawn, breaking down my front door forcing their addon's>down my throat, while I'm trying to finish baking their>"horrible sim"!:-roll >>>>Pete S. :-lol :-lol :-lol :-lol :-lol :-lol

[n4gix 4,947]

>So much for ACES are now supporting developers. I've not found>that at all and none of my team/partners have been approached>by ACES to give us any support. People like Damian Clark from>Active Sky are my partners. And no support at all.With respect, Peter, that is simply not accurate at all...There is - in fact - such a relationship between ACES & outside developers, encompassing both freeware and payware folks. But, the onus is on folks to ASK for inclusion...Might I humbly suggest that you and your associates establish email contact with Michael Zyskowski at ACES directly ASAP... preferably before your words completely poison the well? :-lol

[Guest LeeWang]

:-cool New Expansion PACK "adrenaline" http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/167838.gifBring on the new aircraft :-jumpy Here's my wish list: http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/167839.jpgI can hardly wait! Make it IFR equipped please, and I want really nice 2D side views. :-lol LeePS: I m i pushing my luck if you could add a working FMC?

[Guest Peter Wilding]

Actually Bill,Both Damaian and I have contacted ACES are we were told they were not interested in us at all. We also tried to rasie points on the beta which again were ignored.Other well known developers and I all have a very puzzeld concern now as the Beta 3 of FSX release gave us no opportunity to give valued feedback. Because of the NDA there are things we can't say specifically. Will I beta test for ACES again. No. It's a waste of time. They don't listenThe bottom line is Bill, the poison is running downhill no up hill.We are trying to help ACES but they are not helping in return.May I humbly suggest to you that if ACES want the support of well known developers then first they should accpet this help and second they should keep better records of who's who.I would put money on it if you asked Michael Zyskowski if he knows who I am or Damain clark is he won't know.And yet, most of ACES customers who requent these forums do know who we are.Sadly, there is little humble about ACES IMO.Honestly, is there any point of Damian Clark or myself trying to contact ACES. I will try agian, maybe.Perhaps some of our customers can try on our behalf and see what happens. I dobut if ACES even know who we are.Peter

[Guest Peter Wilding]

Of course ACES are in business to make money though now things are different. Up until now they have not gone for the 3rd party developers market.However we interpret what they will do it's entirely possible they have another project aimed at us after this next update/expansion pack. It's possible they will do something very similar next to another 3rd party developer that's been spending a lot of time working on a new idea.Okay, fair is fair if say real air go for the same market as PMDG as both are 3rd party developers. If they do decide to make a multiplayer add on or a scenery or aircraft that somebody else is working on then maybe they will want to find some cutting edge advantage.Purely from a business point of view it's now similar to considering making a new word processor to compete with Office or Access. Once upon a time this made sense but Office killed of it's competition. In my opinion this will happen too unless ACES perhaps only do this one extra add on. I would guess though they will see how the market responds first.Purely from a business point of view though they may find that it makes sense to make more and more add ons and over time they maybe will make it harder for 3rd party developers to keep in profitable business.I know if I was in ACES position if I decided to re-enter the add on market my plan would be to control that market. And being ACES I could do that.Which ever way we look at this the intelligent 3rd party developer who does this full time for a living will now have to consider other markets as an exit strategy.What probably will happen is some of these 3rd party developers will now be considering more than ever there is perhaps a need for a new simulator and or to enter a more professional market sector such as real world aviation. I know a lot of developers are already thinking this way.At any rate with ACES entering this already very competitive add on market the attractiveness of making 3rd party add-ons and expanding business now falls a little lower down the ladder.It may prove in time that ACES decide that making add-ons makes no real extra money for them but what if it does? Just imagine what comes next from a developers point of view?Will it be better for the user? Who knows? Maybe it will? Only time will tell. As yet we can only speculate and nothing is certain.One thing for certain is that now the 3rd party developers are going to be at least a little worried. The user a little excited.ACES are in control of our destiny more than ever.Peter

[neil0311 366]

EDIT: nevermind...gotta learn to keep quiet

[JSkorna 137]

Specific facts from beta testing are not to be discussed and that is under the NDA.Jimhttp://www.hifisim.com/Active Sky V6 Development Team Active Sky V6 Proud SupporterHiFi Beta TeamRadar Contact Supporter: http://www.jdtllc.com/AirSource Member: http://www.air-source.us/FSEconomy Member:http://www.fseconomy.com/