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Geofa

I don't want to sound ungrateful, but..........

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>Tom, please don't attempt to derive somebodies level of>intelligence about this sim based on the number of posts that>they make, or the number of months they have been around. You>would be surprised by how many people read posts more than>they make them. I would imagine most people spend hours>reading posts, and then only make one or two posts of their>own. I guess we are more inclined to listen than to talk all>the time. >>To be quite honest, I usually read about 100 posts per>evening, and then only type out 1 or 2 posts of my own>depending on how much time I have. As far as how long I have>been around, I bought FS9 over a year and half ago, and I>started coming to these forums around the same time.>>Based on what I have read in these forums, there is a very>small percentage of people who are happy with FSX. In fact, I>would guess that the majority of the people in these forums>can't even play FSX on their system. Glad to hear you enjoy>the sim, but most of us do not. That is where my thinking is>coming from. >>> I never questioned yours or anybody else's intelligence. My point is your use of the word "we" which in the context of this forum, implies everyone here agrees with you, which is not true. Everyone has and is entitled to their own opinion. I have no problem with you stating it's your opinion, or even that many agree with you, just don't make a blanket statement like what you posted, seem like everybody does. Just like I know many don't agree with me!


Thanks

Tom

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Tim,First, let me say at the onset here, I do not own FSX, and will not be considering it until after the DX10 (DXX ? :) ) patch.SP1 may change that :)I say that, to help illustrate the point that I have no agenda against you, ACES, FSX, etc; I don't own the product, not gonna moan about it.....but I may have some questions.My personal opinion is that you (ACES) have done a pretty poor job of getting your message out, where you're going, where you've been, and more importantly what we as consumers can expect.Sure, there's bits and scraps littered about your individual blogs, but I'll tell ya what, I, for one, am not about to go chasing around the internet piecing together 15 blogposts to get a sense of where things are. I'm sure I'm not alone there...As an objective but very curious spectator, I'm left with the feeling that any real information has had to consistently be dragged out of the team; this thread is a good example of that, three of you, posting here to help clear up some of the same issues, where were you last week ?Why did it take a thread like this to get you here with consistent answers ? And before someone comes along to say that these answers have always been there, well, ya know, maybe you're right, but I haven't been avoiding them, haven't seen most of this anywhere else, so they must not be very visible.I'm not trying to be snide, really, if I read that way, I apologize in advance, but IMHO, you guys need to be allot more proactive in keeping a clear, current message out there so that misinterpretation, be it born out of innocent frustration or real malevolence, can be easily countered.I mean really, if you didn't expect the reaction you got, with no preceding explanations, etc., I'm pretty surprised.There's allot of "confusion" out there, OS, hardware, etc., and it very well may be that at certain points, you'll have as few answers as we do. Again, IMHO, you guys could do a lot to help ease some of it, if you were only a bit more visible./ramble mode


Regards,

Brian Doney

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Guest JackDanielsDrinker

>My personal opinion is that you (ACES) have done a pretty poor>job of getting your message out, where you're going, where>you've been, and more importantly what we as consumers can>expect.If you read these forums, you'll get a lot of posts and threads from people who state false premises like they're gospel ("Microsoft could easily move DX10 to XP", "They promised me the DX10 patch when Vista was released"), then complain (or rage) that the premise doesn't comport with reality. If you get your information from these posts, then you'll become confused, depressed, misinformed, and bitter.And if you think ACES has done a poor job on where they're going, then what more do you want? They laid out all of the 2007 for you.>Sure, there's bits and scraps littered about your individual>blogs, but I'll tell ya what, I, for one, am not about to go>chasing around the internet piecing together 15 blogposts to>get a sense of where things are. I'm sure I'm not alone>there...They're not scraps, they're a wealth of information from the horse's mouth. And you don't need to read 15. You can just read 1 (or 2 or 3 if you have the time). Just read Phil's to start:http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/>As an objective but very curious spectator, I'm left with the>feeling that any real information has had to consistently be>dragged out of the team; this thread is a good example of>that, three of you, posting here to help clear up some of the>same issues, where were you last week ?Maybe they were working on SP1 last week? You have three ACES people posting to the same thread and you think that information is being dragged out of them? Three of them are chiming in on the same thread! That's fantastic. They have a lot of other things to do, but they're here trying to inject some first hand information into this thread.>I'm not trying to be snide, really, if I read that way, I>apologize in advance, but IMHO, you guys need to be allot more>proactive in keeping a clear, current message out there so>that misinterpretation, be it born out of innocent frustration>or real malevolence, can be easily countered.You don't come across as snide. But you have to realize that misinterpretation, misinformation, and FUD spring up around here like wildfires all on their own. It is not easy to counter this, especially if some of it is born of "malevolence". ACES does try, and they post clarifications when they see something that is inaccurate. But it is not ACES job to beat down every inaccurate post.>I mean really, if you didn't expect the reaction you got, with>no preceding explanations, etc., I'm pretty surprised.They did expect a negative reaction to the Adrenaline announcement.http://halbryan.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!C...2CCEF!425.entry>There's allot of "confusion" out there, OS, hardware, etc.,>and it very well may be that at certain points, you'll have as>few answers as we do. Again, IMHO, you guys could do a lot to>help ease some of it, if you were only a bit more visible.Phil is all over these threads. He even writes blog posts about concerns in threads to give the clarification more visibility (so it won't be lost in the avalanche of responses).http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007...x-releases.aspxThe information is there and it is not that hard to find.

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Jack, (don't know your name)"If you read these forums, you'll get a lot of posts and threads from people who state false premises like they're gospel ("Microsoft could easily move DX10 to XP", "They promised me the DX10 patch when Vista was released"), then complain (or rage) that the premise doesn't comport with reality. If you get your information from these posts, then you'll become confused, depressed, misinformed, and bitter.And if you think ACES has done a poor job on where they're going, then what more do you want? They laid out all of the 2007 for you."Just FYI, it isn't what I want, I really at this point do not have a passionate interest in FSX."They're not scraps, they're a wealth of information from the horse's mouth. And you don't need to read 15. You can just read 1 (or 2 or 3 if you have the time). Just read Phil's to start:"I don't mean "scraps" as in they're worthless, more that it seems a bunch of little pieces, here and there, sometimes one post contradicting another; just because you or I might be willing weave it all together isn't an indicator that most will."Maybe they were working on SP1 last week? You have three ACES people posting to the same thread and you think that information is being dragged out of them? Three of them are chiming in on the same thread! That's fantastic. They have a lot of other things to do, but they're here trying to inject some first hand information into this thread."I also agree, seeing them here is great, but it certainly seems to me this sort of attention is only given after the fire starts burning out of control, that's all I'm saying.There are many contradicting messages out there, in the other thread, PTaylor himself even says, "Hey, our bad, there's some out of date stuff out there, but here's the real deal", which is of course great, good on you Phil, but it can't come as a surprise that many aren't able to keep up. Some are just too lazy to do the research, and would rather whine about it, some genuinely do not have the time to scour the internet for answers etc.I'm not saying any of it is right, but other than the blatant trolling, can't really say it's wrong either. I just believe that ACES could put a stop to allot of it by being more vocal before things turn south.If they've had the time to post here after the fact, would it have been unreasonable to put those thoughts together in a pre-emptive post the day before the announcement ? Really ? That's not a dig at them, I know they're busy as ####, but they ended up having to do it anyway, no ?I certainly don't expect answers to every question, ####, I haven't even asked any myself, but maybe providing the answers, LOUDLY, before the questions and speculation get started, would be a good thing ?I guess I just think that keeping the message consistent, unified, and current, preferably from a single source, could squash much of the FUD.Do you disagree ?


Regards,

Brian Doney

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>>My personal opinion is that you (ACES) have done a pretty poor>job of getting your message out, where you're going, where>you've been, and more importantly what we as consumers can>expect.>I don't know how anyone can reasonably have such an opinion, given that we now have 1000 times more interaction and openness than we ever had in the past.No communication medium is perfect, but my gosh things are waaay better than before.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case


Rhett

i7-8700k @ 5.0 ghz, 32 GB G.Skill TridentZ, 1080Ti, 32" BenQ, 4K res

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Guest JackDanielsDrinker

>Jack, (don't know your name)Jack or JDD will do.>I guess I just think that keeping the message consistent,>unified, and current, preferably from a single source, could>squash much of the FUD.>>Do you disagree ?Squashing FUD is like herding cats. There are some people in this forum that don't even believe Phil. Then there are the ones that feel sorry for him because they think he's just a pawn in the evil Microsoft conspiracy. Then there are the ones that want 50 FPS with high settings. With people like these posting on this forum, you're going to be behind the 8 ball vis-a-vis communication about FSX/DX10/SP1/Xpack.

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Jack,I agree, and for the record, I am not ungrateful for what ACES have done, not in the least.People, and I mean as a whole, not you or anyone else individually, are speculative and impatient. Many are also quite immature. If your approach to disseminating information assumes that all of your audience is these things, you have a far better shot at stopping much of the BS in it's tracks.I hate to insult anyone, but in a way it's allot like dealing with high school kids; you have to be clear and concise, you cannot allow the masses to determine how the message is spread and perceived, these are things one must remain in control of to avoid this rubbish.There will always be trolls that find something to pick apart, no doubt, but if the message is cut and dry, it's allot easier to put the STFU stamp on anything they bring.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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Agreed Rhett, before we had NADA and now, while not all focused into one thread, on one site for you to read Brian, it is all there, night and day difference.Brian, all respect intended, I can understand someone getting confused on what is what with FSX, based on all the other misinformation posted here by the other confused, misinformed people, there is lots of it. I, like many others that were excited about FS were able to find all the pertinent info on what ACES had in store and how it all would affect us. I say this as I moderate an FSX forum and it was my duty to try and post what I found out, and keeping our members informed with the correct info and it wasn't hard at all.Maybe ACES should have stuck with the tried and true, keep their mouth shut, it would have saved them some grief, LOLRegards, MichaelKDFWNot anti FS9, just pro FSX!

Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe nForce4 SLI-x16 / AMD


Best, Michael

KDFW

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Michael,"Agreed Rhett, before we had NADA and now, while not all focused into one thread, on one site for you to read Brian, it is all there, night and day difference."For one thing, I didn't just sign up for my AVSIM account last week, and my old screen name predates this one by a good while to boot; I know very well how things were, and most certainly do appreciate the changes that have been made. Even if I don't have a personal interest in FSX at this time.The things I discuss above are not exclusive to this situation; people love to #### and moan, you know it, I know it, but it can only get as out of hand as you allow. While you'll never please everyone, you certainly can squash much FUD by removing as much doubt and leaving as little room for speculation as possible. Also make that info as in your face as you reasonably can, and allot of this goes away. Even a sticky here, in this forum, would be a start.'sall I'm sayin'. As far as those that just won't believe what is put in front of them, th whole "M$" crowd, etc, well, IMHO that's prime hunting for the AVSIM ban-hammer, but it seems that's only my opinion.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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"As far as those that just won't believe what is put in front of them, th whole "M$" crowd, etc, well, IMHO that's prime hunting for the AVSIM ban-hammer, but it seems that's only my opinion."Actually, it isn't. I agree with you and you will start to see the results of that agreement. We have tried to be patient and understanding of the frustrations. However, this thread and others have changed that. We are going to start agressively dealing with those that violate our Terms of Use, and we have reverted back to our "one strike and you are out" enforcement of our rules.

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Guest JackDanielsDrinker

Hear hear.

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I personally always have been against heavy moderating.... being a libertarian in my views an all.But If it's going to prevent ACES members posting here (yes..it adds tremendous value) and having a chat with us...then its time for some "one strike and you are out deal".AVSIM as a healthy forum adds value to us ..the flight sim community.When that is threatened and it becomes disruptive... not disruptive because of contrary views...but its disruptive in the way the contrary views are said. Basically being nasty. Then its time for defensive meansures to prevent this house from being burnt down.my 2CentsManny


Manny

Beta tester for SIMStarter 

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Manny,I agree with you, and it's unfortunate that it has come to that, but it certainly has gotten to the point where honest debate isn't possible in the current atmosphere, and that is too high a price to pay, IMHO.Fortunately, heavy moderation isn't typically required for long; once the tone is set, it's much easier to keep it there. I don't think I've ever seen Tom or any of the mods interfere with honest debate, but hey, if you can't discuss your concerns/disagreements/frustrations without slinging mud, be it at ACES, another forum member, whomever, then don't let the door hit ya...For those that have been trying to support ACES by engaging allot of the more trollish posts, you'd do yourselves a favor, at least for the short term, to just let it go, and use the alert button at the bottom of each post.It may be a little quiet for awhile, but I'm sure glad to see Tom has decided he's had enough; my only worry is how evenly this policy will be implemented. There's a few, close to AVSIM, who's long-winded editorials do just as much damage as the most juvenile of trolls. Just because they are 15 paras long and eloquently worded doesn't make them any more than that.Guess we'll see.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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"A) Do you and others REALLY think that 6 months of p***ing and moaning along with threats to Aces Members/Microsoft REALLY CHANGE the dynamic of the tasks the Aces Members/Microsoft have before them."I won't soil Avsim's bandwith a response here. If you wish to resort to personal attacks, then we can take this offline.If you wish to stop hiding behind forum posts and contact me mano o mano, you can email me at michael@toussaintonline.net for clarification.I'll be more than happy to answer your questions in a more "personal" setting.

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