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Warning to Newcomers RE Microsoft Marketplace

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6 minutes ago, Steve Dra said:

Yes they are...business as usual.  The Mooney is irrelevant to them.  So we're left with the only way to patricianly fly it is to start on the runway with a fuel tank selected, and fly until it runs out of avgas, or the imbalance flips you on your back and you dive in. 

Why the heck the click spots and animations for the doors work fine, but the fuel selector doesn't....and they can't seem to fix that (or they never coded a key command for it!!), doesn't make sense to me.  Unless they have just given up on it as a fix to the Mooney makes them no money, but pushing out the Skymaster does.  Mystery solved. 🙂

 

If they can't get the fuel selector in the Mooney working correctly, they are going to have fun with the Skymaster. 

 

 

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Edited by Bobsk8

spacer.pngBob Cardone         MSFS 2020     PMDG DC6,  JF Arrow  , Carenado Seminole , Mooney  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    ATC  by PF3    FlyVirtual.net  CLX PC

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I have a feeling that when Asobo signs up a Developer for the  Market Place they have to agree that all mods and fixes go through the Market Place. 

I wouldn't think so with regard to the PMDG DC6 for example, announced to come to marketplace, but explicitly not all releases. I mean why would they (Asobo/MS), that would just generate extra work for them. Let payware devs test their releases on their own and only bring stable stuff to the marketplace, why not?

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This is a bit of a strange thread, I would have thought end user approach would be to request MS/Asobo retain backwards compatibility and don’t break what used to work prior to updates … that way your 49 Marketplace products wouldn’t be broken and you be a happy customer.

Anyway, that aside the MarketPlace provides:

DRM

Single point of sales

Accessible and maintainable in Sim

Much higher sales volume than external

I feel your pain in regards to non-functional products after MSFS release an update, but I think you’re trying to put the cart in front of the horse and not the other way around.

Cheers, Rob.

Edited by Rob_Ainscough
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24 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

but I think you’re trying to put the cart in front of the horse and not the other way around

And it seems MSFS wants us all to teach the horses to walk backwards to resolve the problem....not resolve the "root cause" of the ongoing marketplace issues. 🙂

Again, I really support the concept of the marketplace for all the reasons you listed....but the ideal concept is far from reality as we've clearly seen, if it weren't, we'd not even be having this conversation, right? 😉

 

24 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I would have thought end user approach would be to request MS/Asobo retain backwards compatibility and don’t break what used to work prior to updates

I'm sure this has been requested in some form or another, but as you know, retaining backwards compatibly is a sticky wicket, something most devs hate coding for its diminishing returns...I feel the much better solution is let the devs either have more finite control of their marketplace items to incorporate their fixes on THEIR schedule, rather than the hoop-jumping and weekly intervals they are currently handcuffed to....OR.....let them publish their updates outside of the MP and, as part of the installer (a template because it would always be the same code, except for the actual item code), do all the background items the MP is expecting if it were an update pushed thru the normal channel.

We do this all the time in my industry, with the exception of the rigorous testing we do before we release the update in to the production version.  Yes there is a lot of overhead to the process and is probably why they are resistant (They want easy for them, cheap, and profitable), but that would solve the root cause of the MP issues and end these discussions IMO.

Edited by Steve Dra
grammar
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Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my DC-6 paints at flightsim.to here

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1 hour ago, Steve Dra said:

retaining backwards compatibly is a sticky wicket, something most devs hate coding for its diminishing returns

In my 35 years of coding and development work, a moving target is to be avoided at all costs ... because of the "costs" to keep moving with it.  Some of the changes made certainly didn't need to be mutually exclusive.

If MS/Asobo continue this approach of breaking updates and ignoring released versions, no amount of increased sales revenue will keep content providers viable (at least those that require income to cover expenses and live off).

This discussion originated due to breaking changes made by MS/Asobo, unless of course the OP is suggesting the 49 products he bought were none functional when released for a specific MSFS version?

When I was coding web application and creating web services and providing those to other web developers who worked on our client's websites, there is NO WAY I could just change those web services such they would break existing dependencies (our client's and their web developers).  I would have to either create a new web service and make it known it's available to all our clients, or manage the existing web service in such a way that it would continue to work and achieve the requirements.  My prior company would never have been as successful as it was if I had adopted an ignore the past philosophy in application development (unsustainable).

I agree the MarketPlace is a little messy and could use some UI cleanup to make it easier for end users, but the root of this issue is breaking changes coming from MS/Asobo.

Cheers, Rob.

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3 hours ago, Steve Dra said:

Yes they are...business as usual.  The Mooney is irrelevant to them.  So we're left with the only way to partially fly it is to start on the runway with a fuel tank selected, and fly until it runs out of avgas, or the imbalance flips you on your back and you dive in. 

Why the heck the click spots and animations for the doors work fine, but the fuel selector doesn't....and they can't seem to fix that (or they never coded a key command for it!!), doesn't make sense to me.  Unless they have just given up on it as a fix to the Mooney makes them no money, but pushing out the Skymaster does.  Mystery solved. 🙂

 

Steve,   as you're a livery painter,  I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on texture resolution.   The reason I ask,  is that I'm starting to see a proliferation of 8k and even 10k liveries at FS.to. 

It's starting to seem a bit excessive to me,  considering the substantial increase in file size.    I guess I just don't grasp why people need (or want) 8k or 10k textures,  when most users have at best 4k monitors.  I am missing something?

Seems like they are crossing the point of diminishing returns,  and risking a performance impact for little visual benefit.

 

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3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

 

Anyway, that aside the MarketPlace provides:

Accessible and maintainable in Sim

A big MarketPlace advantage for me. When there has been an update to a mod, I will know it when I fly.

If I buy 25 addons and then see an email about an updated plane, then I think 'yes I updated that last week'. Only it was a different plane, or a different update to the same plane. But I ignored the email. And I won't ever be getting another clue about how I am now missing the wonderful enhancements I would have received.

Color me lazy. Things like MarketPlaces and Orbx Central work like bright idiöt lights on car dashboards. When I'm driving down the freeway, I would like a hammer to extend out on a scissor mount from the oil pressure gauge and bang my head when I'm low on 10-40.

Edited by Fielder

AMD Ryzen5 3600 cpu, 2060 SUPER gpu, 600 Watt Gold Thermaltake psu, 2K 32" Sceptre curved monitor, 16 GB RAM. Entire system including monitor under $1400 iBuyPower (IBP brand had best user reviews at BestBuy).

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6 minutes ago, Fielder said:

A big MarketPlace advantage for me. When there has been an update to a mod, I will know it when I fly.

If I buy 25 addons and then see an email about an updated plane, then I think 'yes I updated that last week'. Only it was a different plane, or a different update to the same plane. But I ignored the email. And I won't ever be getting another clue about how I am now missing the wonderful enhancements I would have received.

Color me lazy. Things like MarketPlaces and Orbx Central work like bright idiöt lights on car dashboards. When I'm driving down the freeway, I would like a hammer to extend out on a scissor mount from the oil pressure gauge and bang my head when I'm low on 10-40.

The only problem is on Market place, you may never see an update. 


spacer.pngBob Cardone         MSFS 2020     PMDG DC6,  JF Arrow  , Carenado Seminole , Mooney  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    ATC  by PF3    FlyVirtual.net  CLX PC

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Waldo Pepper said:

Steve,   as you're a livery painter,  I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on texture resolution.   The reason I ask,  is that I'm starting to see a proliferation of 8k and even 10k liveries at FS.to. 

It's starting to seem a bit excessive to me,  considering the substantial increase in file size.    I guess I just don't grasp why people need (or want) 8k or 10k textures,  when most users have at best 4k monitors.  I am missing something?

Seems like they are crossing the point of diminishing returns,  and risking a performance impact for little visual benefit.

 

Don't get me started on 8k and 10k liveries. 😏

Not the topic here to expound on the subject, but unless these painters are upscaling (and you can only double upscaling so 10k is a farce)...AND completely repainting every pixel to take advantage of the new scale, then all they are doing is making a 4096 map a 8192 texture map, and while the "paint" they are applying may be a little sharper, the base map will never look better than the scale it was created in by the modeler (unless they repaint every pixel like noted).

Alot of folks may be surprised to know that not ALL the maps on an aircraft model are 4096 (4k).  You'll see them range from 64kb, to a common 1024kb (which we used to paint on ages ago), all the way up to today's standard of 4096....which is usually reserved for the main, VISABLE textures of the aircraft.

Using the PMDG DC-6 for example...all the main textures are 4096, except the wings, which are actually on a 8192 map...but not actually "8K".  The DC-6 modeler decided to put all the wing components on one map, which needed 8192x8192 pixels to fit...however it is still "scaled" at 4096.  Its a plus for painters, but I'm sure he actually did it because it was the best performance-wise than to spread the wing parts over 2 to 3 4096 maps.  The COMP files (the companion files that control the PBR channels of the main textures), are actually 1/2 the size of their counterparts (a fact new painters find out after they try to paste the main map to the comp file for PBR work, LOL).  This is done because the COMP files do not need the fine detail the main maps need...they only tell the sim how shiny to make the surface (more than that actually, but too much detail already, hehe).  

Finally, other textures on the 3d model you rarely see (mostly when gear doors, access panels, cargo doors are open), are usually on 1024 maps as obviously you don't need the detail, and it helps to boost performance.  However (you knew it was coming)....not all devs are rational when it comes to beauty vs performance.  As to not be accused as a basher of any certain dev, but they typically produce ALL their maps at 4096, even for the APU hydraulic lines and parts you'd only see when the APU access door is open....really?  Yes, their model and paint is very nice, but checking their support forums. you'd see many complaining about performance, esp on exterior views.   You know how they "solved" it?   The rescaled all those secondary maps to 2048 or 1024 and guess what?  The performance was better, LOL.

Anyway, as you can probably deduce by now, upscaled paints will almost never increase the detail to a point where you're saying "Good golly!  This looks soooo much better than 4k".  However if you have a marginal system that is struggling to keep up....loading up an 8k textured paint will probably convince you its not worth it.   I've never upscaled any of my paints and have never had a complaint they were not detailed enough. 😉 

Edited by Steve Dra
mb-kb correction
  • Like 2

Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my DC-6 paints at flightsim.to here

9Slp0L.jpg 

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17 hours ago, BIGSKY said:

First a Thank you to NYX 1819 for this,

Before you purchase add-ons from MS Marketplace!!!!

  • Find independent reviews (you shouldn’t have too, but you can’t trust MS to do the right thing)

  • Don’t buy products after a sim update or world update until you see they’ve been updated. When updates are release they are posted in #community:news-and-announcements

  • Consider buying from a first-party or external third-party store - it pains me to recommend this for so many reasons, but at least the updates can flow quickly

Likewise DO NOT rely on YouTube influencer's or Twitch streamers for a independent critique. There is virtually no one on YouTube or Twitch that is an honest unbiased reviewer.

Edited by tpete61
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In regret that I bought some of my add ons from Marketplace, and I will never do it again.


| Intel I9 10900K | Corsair 32Gb 3200MHz | Asus Rog Strix OC 2080Ti | Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB |

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11 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Buying from the Market place is like buying a Rolex watch from someone walking down 42nd street in New York City, who has 5 of them on his wrist, and they are all "on sale"

^^^ This.

It's completely paradoxical.   Buying from a multinational corp like MS, from a marketplace within their core product, should be;

  • The safest,
  • The most convenient,
  • The most comprehensive,
  • The most up to date

...and it's currently none of those things.  It feels a little like buying a used phone from a second hand junk shop in a strip mall, to find it breaks 3 days later, you go back, and the shop has closed down!  

I suspect the problems are due to the disadvantages associated with huge organisations - too much bureaucracy, too many stakeholders and clashing job titles involved.  A little like how many public services end up being run. Bloated, inefficient and bureacratic, slowing everything down and adding unnecessary complexity to what should be straighforward processes.

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Bill

MSFS / XP11

"Teaching children is not a job. It's a privilege"

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19 hours ago, GSalden said:

There should be a message “compatible with the latest MSFS version” added to each addon in the Marketplace if that has been updated.

So a buyer would know if it is safe or not to buy the addon.

And if a product has not been updated within 2-3 months : remove it from the Markerplace to avoid a lot non-compatible addons…

I like this idea...also I believe Microsoft said that they will add more staff to the Marketplace in order to ensure speedier releases and updates. 

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I remember when I played Project Cars on Xbox, every patch released for that game on PC and Consoles took at least a week longer for MS to release as they had to undergo extensive security checks, Sony (Play Station) was always a few days faster to release them.


| Intel I9 10900K | Corsair 32Gb 3200MHz | Asus Rog Strix OC 2080Ti | Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB |

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