What would it take for LR and/or LM to win your money back?

[RobJC 2,069]

This post assumes that MSFS has won your money and you are not considering either P3D or XP. So if you do not fall into this category this post is really not directed at you. For the rest of us...

MSFS has won us over. We love the graphics. The technology is amazing. We are just waiting patiently (sort of!) for PMDG and other devs to deliver the study level stuff (and other aircraft). We know that eventually the bugs we see in MSFS will be sorted out, so from our perspective we are playing while waiting for things to get fixed. So on the surface it doesn't look like many (% wise) are going to start dumping more money into XP or P3D. But let's pretend for a minute that either or both of these companies deliver something so good that they win us back. And more importantly, they need to win 3rd party developers back as well, which will come if they can win us back in large numbers. So...what would that have to look like to get is to spend money on XP or P3D? Of course, current users of either product can keep playing what they have, but that isn't going to help either product in the long run. They need you to spend money. 

Graphics is an obvious place to start. If LR or LM updated the graphics in their products so that they were roughly on par with MSFS would that really move the needle? I don't think so. It might keep the existing user base playing but would it really be enough to get 3rd party devs to invest more in the platform? Now, if either of them could take a step beyond MSFS graphically, which I think will be next to impossible, then that might do it. Ultimately, I don't think equaling MSFS graphically will stop the bleeding. They need to surpass MSFS to have a chance, at least in this area. 

Let's assume they have done that. Graphics are magically better than MSFS and you don't need to 1000 TB SSD drive to run it. Would that advantage be enough for a significant number of users to spend more money on P3D or XP, along with the updates that will be required for so many add-ons to even work with those new versions? Will 3rd party devs be willing to invest the time and money in those add-ons to support the new versions? I think that is suspect at best. Most of these developers are small. Spreading resources around to support multiple platforms when you have a huge market already in MSFS...you have to wonder why they would do that? It will only take longer to get to market, and meanwhile their competition is gaining a foothold in MSFS. 

So even if LM and LR can match MSFS graphically they still have an uphill battle, at least in the consumer space. 

People complain about how hard it is to install updates for MSFS. When was the last time they tried updating P3D or XP? Sure the initial download is somewhat painless (sort of), but what about the time and effort to get all the add-ons updated? It can turn into a huge task, and that doesn't even count the delays to get those add-ons updated. I know MSFS can be a pain, and MS/Asobo really need to improve the update/install process, but for the vast majority of users you simply click a few buttons and wait. Maybe minutes. Maybe hours/days, but the installer does most of the work. Yes, some add-ons need to be updated, but the effort is a lot less in MSFS. Considering that you do not need weather or traffic add-ons those are two areas you can ignore. No updating. No extra cost.  

Speaking of cost. Out of the box MSFS is way less expensive than either XP or P3D. Even if LR or LM they do come up with a new version that makes it on par or better than MSFS, you are looking at weather and traffic updates (assuming they will be available), plus all your aircraft and other add-ons. MSFS gives you a really good sim out of the box for less money, and that isn't even counting the $1 per month offers, XBox play, etc. 

Put yourself behind closed doors at LM and LR. What strategy / plan would you recommend to either team to help them compete with MSFS? What would it take for them to win your money?  Is it even possible?  

 

[omarsmak30 4,065]

They can’t compete, it’s very hard for them. But perhaps they will focus on different market segment like professional contracts. And even that, it’s shaky especially if Microsoft decides to have an enterprise version of MSFS

[WestAir 2,522]

If LM/XP could instead focus on a niche like DCS, they might win me over. I like tubeliner flying, so if they made a totally dedicated expansion for, say, the Boeing 767-200ER and it did everything from jetbridge to jetbridge, with FS2crew like crew resource management and Fenix Sim like fidelity, with immersion taken to the nth degree, I'd probably grab it alongside MSFS.

Edit: But it would need some really well crafted and researched features. I want to see my FO pressing the buttons. I want voiceovers from Chock telling me my parking brake isn't released when I say it is. I want the pax to clog the aisle trying to fit their bags in the compartment sideways. I want a robust icing simulation, a dispatcher that is trying to push an unrealistic flight time, and I want to talk to crew and say no to the 2 hour extension they're trying to put on my FDP. It's gotta be groundbreaking.

Edited September 13, 2021 by WestAir

[leprechaunlive 1,852]

Graphics (photoreal streaming and nothing less at this point) , UI, Communication with consumersand 3rd party devs, and that little 2021 feel MSFS has that the others dont. Firing these sims up feels like going back in time really. 

 

 

[captain420 3,099]

I don't know what LM/LR can do at this point. I think it might be a little too late. I've already uninstalled both P3D and XP from my computer and decided that I am going to invest my hard earned money in MSFS only. In order for me to switch, they would really have to surpass and raise the bar extremely high, which I highly doubt since Asobo has already done that and are continuing on doing so for the next ~9 years.

[Stoopy 1,571]

Both of them can develop aircraft and other add-on content for MSFS and they would be likely to get my money.  Probably more than what I would spend on their simulator base product if their offerings were good enough.

 

[abrams_tank 7,387]

Neither X-Plane nor P3D use satellite & photogrammetry, combined with a company like Blackshark AI to convert the 2D satellite houses and buildings into 3D houses and buildings.  This is one area they are far behind MSFS.

Of course, both X-Plane and P3D are also behind MSFS in overall graphics. 

And finally, you have to spend so much money on add-ons in X-Plane and P3D to make the graphics look good, and then you have to buy an additional hard drive to store all that ortho.  And even if you do all that, not only are the graphics still worse than MSFS, the FPS is worse than MSFS too!

X-Plane and P3D have a long, long, way to go to catch MSFS.  X-Plane and P3D are using technology from 10 years ago while MSFS has modernized flight simulation for the 2020's.

[Sigwolf 222]

A partnership with Google for streaming map data instead of MS's Bing data would be a good starting point, and offer a compelling difference.  LM would also need to drop the ridiculous "professional use only/no entertainment purposes" clause that is ignored anyway and lower the pricing to something reasonable for what they offer.

[ca_metal 2,015]

37 minutes ago, RobJC said:

Put yourself behind closed doors at LM and LR. What strategy / plan would you recommend to either team to help them compete with MSFS? What would it take for them to win your money?  Is it even possible?  

Basically doing what MS/Asobo did avoiding their mistakes, which is, realistically speaking, impossible. Right now I'm fine with MSFS, and hoping to see more improvements to the platform, to the point I don't care to follow P3D and X-plane development updates anymore. 

LM and LR won't ever catch up (my opinion, of course), but they will still have their places. And if/when MS decides to leave again, they will be there.

Edited September 13, 2021 by ca_metal

[abrams_tank 7,387]

36 minutes ago, omarsmak30 said:

They can’t compete, it’s very hard for them. But perhaps they will focus on different market segment like professional contracts. And even that, it’s shaky especially if Microsoft decides to have an enterprise version of MSFS

LM's best bet is to get as much money from the commercial market that they can before MSFS decides to enter the commercial market.  At that point, I would just gradually cut funds on development if I were LM because they can't compete with MSFS (although LM should still use some funds to support P3D for their customers).  The other option for LM is to try to get the license rights for MSFS for the commercial market, so that they keep the commercial market themselves and Microsoft never enters the commercial market.

For LR, I can't see how they can match MSFS in both graphics and FPS.  I can see X-Plane 12 closing the gap in graphics with MSFS, but if X-Plane 12 narrows the gap with MSFS enough in graphics, it will come at the cost of FPS, because X-Plane 12 is using such old architecture. Right now, not only does MSFS have the best graphics among all the home market civilian PC flight simulators, it also has the best FPS as well.  However, I think X-Plane 12 should be the last version for X-Plane for the home consumer PC market.  LR should make what money they can on X-Plane 12, and then either focus on the mobile market or the commercial market.  It's a waste of money for LR to spend on X-Plane 13, 14, 15, etc, because they are so far behind MSFS and they may never catch up to MSFS for the home consumer PC market.

Edited September 13, 2021 by abrams_tank

[ca_metal 2,015]

2 minutes ago, Sigwolf said:

LM would also need to drop the ridiculous "professional use only/no entertainment purposes" clause that is ignored anyway and lower the pricing to something reasonable for what they offer.

Unless they start a new platform from the ground up, they can't do it. It's in the terms of their agreement with Microsoft (AFAIK). For now they have to deal with things on that "gray area" of the market.

[abrams_tank 7,387]

3 minutes ago, ca_metal said:

LM and LR won't ever catch up (my opinion, of course), but they will still have their places. And if/when MS decides to leave again, they will be there.

^^^ This.

I don't think LM or LR will catch up.  It's possible, but highly unlikely.

[ca_metal 2,015]

Just now, abrams_tank said:

^^^ This.

I don't think LM or LR will catch up.  It's possible, but highly unlikely.

And, to be fair, I think they know it and they will just be rational to do what they can to capture their niches without compromising the viability of their platforms.

[bobcat999 8,442]

I hope some competition comes along, as it will just be MSFS or nothing at this rate.

As for what it would take, anything that is graphically and technically superior to MSFS, but I can't see that happening in the near future.

We don't always see things coming. I never saw this coming (MSFS getting this good so quick) and I was just about to throw my lot in with P3D (from 10 years of FSX) until I saw the MSFS publicity videos about 2 years ago (that was a close call! )  So who knows what the future holds?

I will say that I hold no undivided loyalty towards MSFS, MS, and Asobo.  If something better comes out, I am on it straight away.  That is life, and that is just the way things are.  I sometimes think this loyalty thing causes an lot of unnecessary arguing between the fans of the various sims.  Of all the ones currently out there, they all have their specific attractions to different people.  There is no one sim that is the best all round.

[bofhlusr 453]

For LR/LM to survive, in addition to MSFS tech, they also need to:

1. partner with Google,
2. add shooting capabilities ala DCS (warplanes now in P3D, MSFS, and XP that don't shoot guns makes me think of condoms and shaking hands with gloves)
3. add first person shooter (FPS) game-like capabilities. 

For the latter, an example scenario would be for the pilot to walk out of the plane, gather supplies and spare parts so as to escape a horde of zombies, or free hostages deep in the mountainous regions of Hostagestan.