Big Radials P-40 tail drag modeling the worst of our options

[Dillon 2,197]

I thought about this long and hard and with many attempts at various techniques to see what works.  I come away with seeing the initial adjustments other developers had to make missed it's mark with the Big Radials model.  I thought by now they'd take a page from Milviz, Flying Iron, and Airplane Heaven in the efforts those developers made to work within FS2020's tail dragger ground handling constraints.  All our other options have done a great job in giving us what they could concerning tail dragger modeling.  I haven't found consistent success with takeoff with the P-40.  If you don't have a perfect wind down the runway that bird will shoot off to the left with all rudder input unable to rectify the situation.  I can land without issue but taking off is a word not allowed shoot.  No other FS model has this issue now as they did in the early stages of FS2020 until developers worked out the issue.  Even with Carenado's obvious issues with ground modeling in the Waco, I can at least take off with it consistently.  Flying Iron's Spitfire was the worse of the bunch early on next was the Milviz Corsair.  This has since been rectified with both those developers.  I reviewed the official WWII training videos on Youtube as well as other documentation I could find and nothing lends itself to showing a problem to this extent with the slightest crosswind on takeoff.  No publication or pilot stories show a dangerous problem with taking off in a P-40 in a crosswind where you loose all input control of the rudder and tail wheel.  Big Radials needs to address this like all the other developers of tail draggers have done.  It's a shame they haven't done so with all the time that this product has been on the market:

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Dillon

[JSmith2112 317]

I don't have this plane so can't comment, but fascinating video. If I heard correctly the flaps and gear are partially operated by a 2nd trigger on the control stick and the instructor says not to press the trigger for the guns by mistake!

[jcomm 5,923]

Maybe SU6 can bring with it's fine tunning of ground friction some better days for taildraggers.

It's also supposed to introduce the fully castoring tailwheel not yet available in FS2020.

I would wait for SU6 before trying to correct anything in a model, if I were a developer...

[Chock 17,769]

Dunno what you're doing wrong to not be able to get it off the deck in a crosswind, or without one. I've just tested it with a 15 knot (gusting to 20) crosswind at EGGP, and it was easy to keep it tracking straight along the runway centreline. Are you sure you are putting in the correct amount of rudder trim? Six degrees usually does the trick; the rest can be held with coarse use of the rudder. Here's a pic of me doing that; you can see the windsock is indicating about 18 knots at the point this pic was taken and Shift-Z is reporting it as 15 knots, yet I am right on the runway centreline when well over fifty feet off the deck. Stick plenty of rudder trim in and get on the rudder early when you let the brakes off to commence the take off roll, in order to counter the initial torque swing, and you should be able to get the thing up okay. Note that this is the latest patched version of the BR P-40.

It's worth bearing in mind too that most taildraggers from the era of the P40's design didn't really publish much in the way of demonstrated crosswind limits because at that time most airfields were either just a field where you just pointed into the wind for take-offs and landings, or if not they were Class A airfields, which of course make it fairly impossible for you to have a particularly bad crosswind because of the way the runways are laid out.

If you want to test the crosswind limit for the P-40 for yourself (or any other aeroplane for that matter) a 'ballpark technique' to find out that figure, is to fly straight down a runway at finals speed, note the compass heading when going straight down the runway, then give it as much rudder as you can possibly get away with whilst correcting with the ailerons to keep tracking down the centreline in a crab motion. Note the biggest angle offset you can handle in degrees whilst still managing to track the centreline, then add about ten to the amount of deflection in degrees you managed. That'll give you a rough estimate of the maximum crosswind you could probably get away with. For the Big Radials P-40, I found that to be around 30 knots. How that would compare to a real P-40 I dunno, but if it is anywhere near the real thing, then that is pretty good considering the P-40 and other fighters of that era were never really designed to be taken off or landed in crosswinds anyway.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Chock

[Dillon 2,197]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Dunno what you're doing wrong to not be able to get it off the deck in a crosswind, or without one. I've just tested it with a 15 knot (gusting to 20) crosswind at EGGP, and it was easy to keep it tracking straight along the runway centreline. Are you sure you are putting in the correct amount of rudder trim? Six degrees usually does the trick; the rest can be held with coarse use of the rudder. Here's a pic of me doing that; you can see the windsock is indicating about 18 knots at the point this pic was taken and Shift-Z is reporting it as 15 knots, yet I am right on the runway centreline when well over fifty feet off the deck. Stick plenty of rudder trim in and get on the rudder early when you let the brakes off to commence the take off roll, in order to counter the initial torque swing, and you should be able to get the thing up okay. Note that this is the latest patched version of the BR P-40.

 

It's worth bearing in mind too that most taildraggers from the era of the P40's design didn't really publish much in the way of demonstrated crosswind limits because at that time most airfields were either just a field where you just pointed into the wind for take-offs and landings, or if not they were Class A airfields, which of course make it fairly impossible for you to have a particularly bad crosswind because of the way the runways are laid out.

If you want to test the crosswind limit for the P-40 for yourself (or any other aeroplane for that matter) a 'ballpark technique' to find out that figure, is to fly straight down a runway at finals speed, note the compass heading when going straight down the runway, then give it as much rudder as you can possibly get away with whilst correcting with the ailerons to keep tracking down the centreline in a crab motion. Note the biggest angle offset you can handle in degrees whilst still managing to track the centreline, then add about ten to the amount of deflection in degrees you managed. That'll give you a rough estimate of the maximum crosswind you could probably get away with. For the Big Radials P-40, I found that to be around 30 knots. How that would compare to a real P-40 I dunno, but if it is anywhere near the real thing, then that is pretty good considering the P-40 and other fighters of that era were never really designed to be taken off or landed in crosswinds anyway.

 

Hey Chock, I've done all that and can't get this bird to perform properly on takeoff.  Sometimes it's good and most others it's not.  Once it turns to the left it's game over no matter what your inputs are.  Once you get over that hump she climbs out without issue but if you don't your in the trees or the side of the runway with a ground loop on top of that.

[OzWookiee 18]

Thanks for buying our plane. As @Chock mentioned above, with the correct trim she'll take off fine. You still need a rudder pedal dance, but that is correct for type.  Come and join our Discord (link below AND in our manuals 😉 ) and get some help from the community.

Edited October 14, 2021 by OzWookiee

[Dillon 2,197]

9 hours ago, OzWookiee said:

Thanks for buying our plane. As @Chock mentioned above, with the correct trim she'll take off fine. You still need a rudder pedal dance, but that is correct for type.  Come and join our Discord (link below AND in our manuals 😉 ) and get some help from the community.

I have the trim set as recommended and have no issue with other tail draggers.  Your plane has a tendency to loose all control on the takeoff roll once it pulls to the left.  Even with trim set, all wheels on the ground, and trim set this plane becomes uncontrollable and at times results in a ground loop.  Again this is not always the case but a good 85% of the time this bird looses it on the takeoff roll.  If it was me and technique I wouldn't be able to get this bird off the ground any percent of the time.  I used to see this with other offerings like Flying Iron's Spitfire but they worked on the issue.  You guys have left things as they are since the initial release of this product which we all know taildragger models needed further refinement based on Asobo's default in sim flight characteristics.  Everyone else has done a great job addressing this in later patches.  I'll look at your discussions but I'm convinced your flight model can be better.  Pulling to the left is one thing, loosing all rudder and ground control as if your suddenly on ice is a completely other thing.  I'm not seeing any documentation for the real world bird that references this hazard (as that's what this is).  I'm on the edge of uninstalling this bird.  I love overall what you guys have done overall but this is a big eye sore for me. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Dillon

[Nyxx 6,993]

Well......

What are you doing with your stick?

[Dillon 2,197]

41 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Well......

What are you doing with your stick?

😄, do you have this add-on?  Outside of Chock (who's not having an issue) I'm wondering if others are seeing what I'm seeing.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Dillon

[Nyxx 6,993]

Yes I do and the MKI spit and the MKIX spit also the FG milviz.

I ask you the question 🙄 and will ask again, what are you doing with your stick Dillon?

I have no problems with the P40 and I dont use rudder assist.

But if your going to use " 😄" and question if I even have it> I might not bother helping...............

EDIT:

It will be the last time but here....goto 16:30

Stick FULL BACK.............Thats what you do with your stick.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Nyxx

[Dillon 2,197]

1 hour ago, Nyxx said:

Yes I do and the MKI spit and the MKIX spit also the FG milviz.

I ask you the question 🙄 and will ask again, what are you doing with your stick Dillon?

I have no problems with the P40 and I dont use rudder assist.

But if your going to use " 😄" and question if I even have it> I might not bother helping...............

I was laughing at the comment 'what are you doing with your stick' thinking you were making a joke.  Looking back at how I wrote it I can see how you would come away with an offence.  To answer your question:

I hold the sick back to keep the tail on the ground before the pull to the left.  Usually when things work the tale wheel stays on the ground and helps with the pull.  Once you get past the pull your fine as speed builds enough where the tail comes up and your balancing on two wheels dancing on the rudders.  Shortly after that a slight pull up get's you airborne.

EDIT:

You posted the video above after I made the comments here.  I use the same technique as the video yet my results are different most of the time as I've already explained.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Dillon

[jcomm 5,923]

Dillon,

you're absolutely right in all of your observations.

Bellow a link to one of Kermie WW2 Cam's, in a TP-40N, where you can watch the takeoff. Notice quite a good deal of right stick until airborne...

Bellow that video a link to another RW pilot ( instructor and now airline too, and a well known Air Combat Simmer ) with his Tutorial on how to "fly" the P-40E in IL2-BoX...

Check both - there's a bit to evolve into this sort of ground physics in MFS towards being able to more closely simulate how a taildragger handles, but stuff was announced regarding tailwheel modelling and overall wheel friction already for SU6, and more to come with SU7 and ... so, we can hope for better days 🙂

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by jcomm

[Ixoye 1,821]

The only way for me to take off and landing taildraggers without any problems is to turn off the wind completely, except AH C-140, that beauty feels quite good even in crosswind.

[Dillon 2,197]

3 hours ago, jcomm said:

Dillon,

you're absolutely right in all of your observations.

Bellow a link to one of Kermie WW2 Cam's, in a TP-40N, where you can watch the takeoff. Notice quite a good deal of right stick until airborne...

Bellow that video a link to another RW pilot ( instructor and now airline too, and a well known Air Combat Simmer ) with his Tutorial on how to "fly" the P-40E in IL2-BoX...

Check both - there's a bit to evolve into this sort of ground physics in MFS towards being able to more closely simulate how a taildragger handles, but stuff was announced regarding tailwheel modelling and overall wheel friction already for SU6, and more to come with SU7 and ... so, we can hope for better days 🙂

Thanks for both of those videos.  Although many are saying (which works sometimes for me) you have to cram the stick all the way back on takeoff I'm not seeing that in any video I find.  The official training video I posted above states not to do that.  Kermit is not pulling back on the stick like that either to keep the tail wheel on the ground initially.  He's compensating for the crosswind but that's about it.  I hold firm that the flight model needs work by Big Radials.  The takeoff characteristics leave allot to be desired.

[psolk 3,040]

Man his right leg is pinned on that rudder pedal!