Big Radials P-40 tail drag modeling the worst of our options

[Dillon 2,197]

13 minutes ago, psolk said:

Man his right leg is pinned on that rudder pedal! 

Even after takeoff...

[jcomm 5,890]

30 minutes ago, Dillon said:

I hold firm that the flight model needs work by Big Radials.  The takeoff characteristics leave allot to be desired.

Dillon,

I don't own this module so, I really can't offer an opinion, but I do find that all taildraggers I have tried in MFS present more or less the same problem, and that is strongly tied to the way ASOBO presently blends the sideways friction from full to "flight mode"... all of a sudden, and causing that overdone effect.

Doesn't even have to be windy...

[psolk 3,037]

21 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Dillon,

I don't own this module so, I really can't offer an opinion, but I do find that all taildraggers I have tried in MFS present more or less the same problem, and that is strongly tied to the way ASOBO presently blends the sideways friction from full to "flight mode"... all of a sudden, and causing that overdone effect.

Doesn't even have to be windy...

Not just tail draggers but I'm also still figuring out if some of that is controller sensitivity on my side...I definitely haven't locked down controller feel on my side.

[Dillon 2,197]

23 hours ago, Chock said:

Dunno what you're doing wrong to not be able to get it off the deck in a crosswind, or without one. I've just tested it with a 15 knot (gusting to 20) crosswind at EGGP, and it was easy to keep it tracking straight along the runway centreline. Are you sure you are putting in the correct amount of rudder trim? Six degrees usually does the trick; the rest can be held with coarse use of the rudder. Here's a pic of me doing that; you can see the windsock is indicating about 18 knots at the point this pic was taken and Shift-Z is reporting it as 15 knots, yet I am right on the runway centreline when well over fifty feet off the deck. Stick plenty of rudder trim in and get on the rudder early when you let the brakes off to commence the take off roll, in order to counter the initial torque swing, and you should be able to get the thing up okay. Note that this is the latest patched version of the BR P-40.

Hey Chock, been flying this bird tonight and thought I'd run something by you.  Try doing a few touch and go's continuously (maybe about 5) and let me know how you make out with success. I was able to do two and it went down hill from there.  Also I tried filling up the tanks and that was even worse.  The more you fly it the more the warts come out.  If I do one touch and go from the same airport it's usually not a problem.  Once I do a cross country and a few landings at various fields or pick one to do touch and goes after leaving my home field I find it's a problem.  Now this is surely saying that back to back takeoff/landings one can miss a slight flare here and a slower pull up there but it goes along way in showing different conditions back to back will usually result in a bad outcome.  This is not the case with other tail draggers as they don't slide down the runway sideways as if you on ice and totally loose traction of the tires if you slightly off.  This bird is very unpredictable from one field to the next and from one weather condition to the next.  One has to do back to back operations to see the problem.

[Chock 17,769]

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

Hey Chock, been flying this bird tonight and thought I'd run something by you.  Try doing a few touch and go's continuously (maybe about 5) and let me know how you make out with success. I was able to do two and it went down hill from there.  Also I tried filling up the tanks and that was even worse.  The more you fly it the more the warts come out.  If I do one touch and go from the same airport it's usually not a problem.  Once I do a cross country and a few landings at various fields or pick one to do touch and goes after leaving my home field I find it's a problem.  Now this is surely saying that back to back takeoff/landings one can miss a slight flare here and a slower pull up there but it goes along way in showing different conditions back to back will usually result in a bad outcome.  This is not the case with other tail draggers as they don't slide down the runway sideways as if you on ice and totally loose traction of the tires if you slightly off.  This bird is very unpredictable from one field to the next and from one weather condition to the next.  One has to do back to back operations to see the problem.

Don't have time to look into it much at the moment, been doing de-icing training all this week on long shifts, so I'm pretty tired, which is why I've also got a bunch of reviews backed up waiting for me to finish too. I will check it out when I get to the end of my block of shifts later this week. On the plus side, I am now signed off to de-ice stuff, although I'll be honest and say that being up high in basket in the wind with the boom and jib fully extended so you can spray the tail of an A330 is not my favourite thing. The trucks are kind of fun to drive though, they roll a lot in the turn what with the weight of 6,000 litres of de-icing on board plus the engines and boilers for heating it up all mounted on that chassis. 🚍🔫

[Fielder 3,643]

I just flew the P40 first time since about 3 weeks. The ground roll is not as bad as the original Corsair. But it is more severe than how the other Warhawks are that I have installed right now (FI Spit, Corsair, Zero). But can be controlled enough to take off OK every time. I do have elevator sensitivity set to 50 in Controlers screen of MSFS. Starting 6 marks right trim and full back stick. Ca

[leprechaunlive 1,852]

Hey guys! 

"i would never try touch and go on the P-40, landings and take offs are just too busy to be done in one go"

"It'd be fun if you made the plane crash if the rudder trim wasnt perfectly set for take off"

These, along without many other spicy comments were made by Dave Hadfield (Warbird Pilot, regular P40 Pilot, and yes, brother of the allmighty Commander) during a long zoom chat we had with him. 

 

Now of course, im not saying we have made a perfect recreation of the warhawk, but we tried to take on board our consultants comment, while at the same time, trying to tame the crazy MSFS behaviours. We made the call to have it really hard on "realistic", and much easier with rudder assist, wich by the way, is NOT a shame to use 😄 That option is there for a reason, i use it often.

 

 

 

[Fielder 3,643]

6 hours ago, Fielder said:

I just flew the P40 first time since about 3 weeks. The ground roll is not as bad as the original Corsair. But it is more severe than how the other Warhawks are that I have installed right now (FI Spit, Corsair, Zero). But can be controlled enough to take off OK every time. I do have elevator sensitivity set to 50 in Controlers screen of MSFS. Starting 6 marks right trim and full back stick. Ca

But yes I do think the sim P40 takeoff is too hard compared to reality. It is more a game than a sim because of this difficulty. A sim should match real life. The P40 was not this hard to guide down the runway in real life. It just was not.

[Fielder 3,643]

The FlyingIron Spit was released with a little bit hard to control takeoff but not all that tough, now it is even easier in the newer versions, the easiest of all warbirds (except the simplistic Zero).

When the Corsair was released, was about 5 times harder to takeoff than the P40 is right now. But they patched it and now it is about 10 times easier than the P40 is right now. The Corsair developers were on Avsim here talking about 'widow maker' and that it was fine as released. But by popular demand they relented and tamed it down to a pretty easy warbird to handle getting it into the air from a narrow runway.

For the P40 I must use the MSFS 'rudder assist'. But when I do it is perfectly usable, just seems unrealistically difficult.

Just my impressions, you all may have various other opinions. 🙂

 

[Dillon 2,197]

5 hours ago, leprechaunlive said:

Hey guys! 

"i would never try touch and go on the P-40, landings and take offs are just too busy to be done in one go"

"It'd be fun if you made the plane crash if the rudder trim wasnt perfectly set for take off"

These, along without many other spicy comments were made by Dave Hadfield (Warbird Pilot, regular P40 Pilot, and yes, brother of the allmighty Commander) during a long zoom chat we had with him. 

 

Now of course, im not saying we have made a perfect recreation of the warhawk, but we tried to take on board our consultants comment, while at the same time, trying to tame the crazy MSFS behaviours. We made the call to have it really hard on "realistic", and much easier with rudder assist, wich by the way, is NOT a shame to use 😄 That option is there for a reason, i use it often.

I get where your justification here is but no plane looses control on the ground the way your P40 does.  In fact no vehicle with decent tires does as well.  This add-on will literally veer to the left and roll sideways on the tires as if it's on ice.  All rudder input reminds me of a 'Black Ice' situation in winter where you loose control of your car.  Even the ground loop looks to be a slip and slide affair versus a realistic representation of losing control with tires that actually have tire tread on them.  Until Asobo addresses whatever is going on with tail dragger handling you should at least do what the other developers have done and tame down this unrealistic behavior.  Unless your trying to simulate bald tire performance on wet pavement/grass (even though it's actually sunny and dry outside) you need to correct this...🥺

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dillon

[leprechaunlive 1,852]

43 minutes ago, Dillon said:

I get where your justification here is but no plane looses control on the ground the way your P40 does.  In fact no vehicle with decent tires does as well.  This add-on will literally veer to the left and roll sideways on the tires as if it's on ice.  All rudder input reminds me of a 'Black Ice' situation in winter where you loose control of your car.  Even the ground loop looks to be a slip and slide affair versus a realistic representation of losing control with tires that actually have tire tread on them.  Until Asobo addresses whatever is going on with tail dragger handling you should at least do what the other developers have done and tame down this unrealistic behavior.  Unless your trying to simulate bald tire performance on wet pavement/grass (even though it's actually sunny and dry outside) you need to correct this...🥺

The thing is, you can "fix" it yourself by turning on rudder assist! We have had very few report of the behaviour you describes (we've had some tho), but the vast majority of the feedback is that yes its hard, but manageable with a bit of practice. If we tame it down, then all the feddback is going to get reversed, and the majority of people liking the challenge wont anymore. And there is no option for an extra hard mode, there is only one to make it easier (rudder assist), works aonly one way unfortunately. Long story short:

-If hard, people can make it easier with rudder assist
-if easy, people CANT make it harder

So not sure what to do here. Yes, other devs have taken the route of an easier behaviour, but ive seen a good few people complaining about it. Cant make everyone happy unfortunately.

 

 

[Dillon 2,197]

Double post by mistake.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dillon

[Dillon 2,197]

38 minutes ago, leprechaunlive said:

The thing is, you can "fix" it yourself by turning on rudder assist! We have had very few report of the behaviour you describes (we've had some tho), but the vast majority of the feedback is that yes its hard, but manageable with a bit of practice. If we tame it down, then all the feddback is going to get reversed, and the majority of people liking the challenge wont anymore. And there is no option for an extra hard mode, there is only one to make it easier (rudder assist), works aonly one way unfortunately. Long story short:

-If hard, people can make it easier with rudder assist
-if easy, people CANT make it harder

So not sure what to do here. Yes, other devs have taken the route of an easier behaviour, but ive seen a good few people complaining about it. Cant make everyone happy unfortunately.

Having to use 'Rudder Assist' on one add-on out of everything I have in my hanger is just wrong for me.  I've never and have always been against 'assist' with anything in the sim.  That's more of an XBOX option to me at this point.  I guess I'll uninstall this bird and move on.  If this was a prerequisite to takeoff in this bird (or get more realistic/reasonable takeoff control) I wouldn't have bought this add-on in the first place.  Milviz told us about adjusting the CG before takeoff before they made needed modifications but never have I had an add-on that requires 'assist' to properly/consistently control an aircraft on the ground.  Maybe I missed this in the documentation.  Your right you can't please everyone but even by real world standards the bird doesn't perform like this. It's just difficult for the sake of being difficult... For people to demand unrealistic difficulty something you wouldn't find in the real bird is the hardcore opposite to the gamer crowd reversing the axis and dumbing down the flight model with easy options in the sim to more match Ace Combat. I'm speechless on this one... 😶

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dillon

[Stoopy 1,571]

10 hours ago, leprechaunlive said:

..."It'd be fun if you made the plane crash if the rudder trim wasnt perfectly set for take off"...

Dumb question. Is there a perfect setting for rudder trim such that using the rudder assist option isn't needed? If so what is it?

If not, then I'd consider that the OP has a valid point and maybe a tweak is needed to get the bird to live up to your consultant's input, no?

Edited October 15, 2021 by Stoopy

[leprechaunlive 1,852]

Never said Dillon didnt have a fair point. 

I also think my explanation is fair. I have to mitigate and temperate his remarks with the many feedback we get from our buyers, feedback that WE get. We know, i think, more than anyone what our users like and dont. And on that particular aspect, the vast majority likes, and have no problem with the take off behaviour. And yes, very few hates it, i never denied that. So what exactly am i supposed to do here? Ignore 95% of our user base?

23 hours ago, Dillon said:

never have I had an add-on that requires 'assist' to properly/consistently control an aircraft on the ground.

Lets just not start with that kind of misleading information, lying wont get us anywhere in this debate...