Big Radials P-40 tail drag modeling the worst of our options

[Dominique_K 10,133]

Just now, Dillon said:

Hey Dominique, I hear your point but when your tires have no traction on dry pavement as if your on ice you can't explain this away as the difficulties of handling warbirds.  

 

3 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Please for the sake of us all (since your commenting in this thread) get this aircraft so you can see for yourself what we are talking about... 

 I have read so many threads like this one where impatient and  incompetent simmers (aren't we all 😉?) put the load on the dev instead on themselves (human nature)  that I felt interesting to share DH's tutorial that helped me a lot 10 years ago At least read it and try to see if it helps you too instead of shooting the guy (me) who brought it to you ! I do understand what you are talking about and it seems that  DH addresses somewhat the issue.  Maybe it will help or maybe not. Better trying than lamenting, no ?

I comment on this thread because it seems to me that the issue is not only the BR P-40. The issue is whether we want complex, maybe ungratifying at first, or the "fun first" type of aircraft. 

[Dillon 2,197]

2 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

I have read so many threads like this one where impatient and  incompetent simmers (aren't we all 😉?) put the load on the dev instead on themselves (human nature)  that I felt interesting to share DH's tutorial that helped me a lot 10 years ago At least read it and try to see if it helps you too instead of shooting the guy (me) who brought it to you ! I do understand what you are talking about and it seems that  DH addresses somewhat the issue.  Maybe it will help or maybe not. Better trying than lamenting, no ?

I comment on this thread because it seems to me that the issue is not only the BR P-40. The issue is whether we want complex, maybe ungratifying at first, or the "fun first" type of aircraft. 

Well Dominique, I'm not incompetent nor impatient.  I actually fly in the real world.  I have no experience in WWII birds so this one is hard. We had a Citabria when I was with North Star Flyers before I left MN that I flew in a few times.  In the confines of FS2020 every other warbird we have is more on top of it than this bird if for nothing more than the tires have traction and rudder input actually works to counter the prop on takeoff.  When your rudder no longer works on any phase of flight let alone your tail wheel that's planted on the ground you have a problem.  That's when you take it back to the hanger for a mechanic to take a look if you survive the event.  

I've learnt in the past to have the product myself before I default every time to simmers being at fault.  Many of us here are actual pilots in the real world and/or have had some kind of piloting experience.  Those of us who've been around for years actually love and indulge in real world aviation.  My son just got his pilot's license and I can attribute that to what he's seen his father into for all the years of his life.  Sometimes developers do get it wrong and I believe in this case this is what we're dealing with here.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Dillon

[Fielder 3,645]

For anybody reading this older thread Sim Update 6 MSFS has greatly eased the path takeoffs and landings. The issues in this thread really have been reduced dramatically. SU6 was October 19, 2021.

I have no more problems with the P-40 myself....

[Dillon 2,197]

5 hours ago, Fielder said:

For anybody reading this older thread Sim Update 6 MSFS has greatly eased the path takeoffs and landings. The issues in this thread really have been reduced dramatically. SU6 was October 19, 2021.

I have no more problems with the P-40 myself....

I couldn't agree more.  With SU6 this whole discussion for me now is rendered mute.  Asobo did a great job smoothing out the rough edges of the default flight model as a whole.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Dillon

[timers15 11]

I'm able to use the p40 now, based on all I have read here.   It was very frustrating at first. I have like every other big name tail dragger warbird. I've learned to build up speed to get the rudder active before giving it full power. This method works for all the others at the cost of runway, uh, including the same plane by another vendor. I've watched many videos of the P40 I don't see this "rudder dance".  The amount that this "rudder dance" is repeated makes it feel like the developer got hung up on this and "IF CONDITION THEN CRASH". I'm not trying to be mean, I just want to honestly describe the appearance. 

Other than that, I'm pretty pleased with the aircraft. It's my favorite warbird mainly for the plane itself but now I can actually fly it which is a plus. I just wanted to thank Dillon for what I think is a well presented argument.  I'm glad someone spoke up about these issues.

Will there be a P40E coming from BR?

[vampir0104 2]

Moin all!

So,  I purchased this product two days ago and had the same experiences expressed in this thread.  As the manufacturer promised, as a few others have pointed out, this can be overcome.

First,  use 9.5 degrees of rudder to the right for takeoff.  This seems to allow the rudder to overcome the yaw tendency.

Second,  this was taught to me by a heli instructor when I he was teaching me to hover:  Pick an object that is rather close to your cowl. Use the relative motion of that point in reference to your cowl to figure out just how much rudder needs to be applied and will give an instantaneous indication if/when the aircraft starts a non-commanded yawing motion.

Third, check your sensitivities.  I have mine set to 34%.  Then again, my rudder petals aren't exactly the best...

Is this questionable... well, the debate on this has been had above me.  Is it possible to overcome this without use of auto-rudder?  Absolutely!

Fly safe!

[Dillon 2,197]

1 hour ago, vampir0104 said:

Moin all!

So,  I purchased this product two days ago and had the same experiences expressed in this thread.  As the manufacturer promised, as a few others have pointed out, this can be overcome.

First,  use 9.5 degrees of rudder to the right for takeoff.  This seems to allow the rudder to overcome the yaw tendency.

Second,  this was taught to me by a heli instructor when I he was teaching me to hover:  Pick an object that is rather close to your cowl. Use the relative motion of that point in reference to your cowl to figure out just how much rudder needs to be applied and will give an instantaneous indication if/when the aircraft starts a non-commanded yawing motion.

Third, check your sensitivities.  I have mine set to 34%.  Then again, my rudder petals aren't exactly the best...

Is this questionable... well, the debate on this has been had above me.  Is it possible to overcome this without use of auto-rudder?  Absolutely!

Fly safe!

As I'm the original poster of this thread I've come to have a different view and appreciation of what's been done here.  In my research the real bird in it's 'B" incarnation was a dog both on the ground and the air in the real world.  Pilots of newer models in WWII North Africa felt bad for pilots still flying this bird in combat.  Other countries relegated the 'B' model to training/none combat because it was such a dog. So what's been done here is realistic to what this bird was.  The P-40 didn't really come into it's own until the the 'F' variant (which is sold for MSFS by InBuilds).  By then it was too late as resources were being pulled to developer the first P-51's.  So what we have here is a realistic rendition.  There's no tampering with control settings or mod's anywhere that needs to be done.  If your controllers work just fine with other tail draggers, your good with the P-40B.  Now you just have to learn how to get it off the ground as it's supposed to be more difficult than the later model tail draggers.  If you make sure as much as possible to takeoff in the wind you should be good.  It's not forgiving as other tail draggers which is how it was in the real world.  For the record the Flying Tigers used the 'C' model which I guess was easier to handle than the 'B'.  Once you get it there's a since of satisfaction in taming the beast.  Good Luck!🍺

It's ironic the video I choose in my original post was of the 'F' model not understanding the glaring differences at the time.  With the improvements of MSFS ground handling and research into WWII era fighters like the Spitfire, a more completed understanding of 'A' models versus later variants is like talking about two different aircraft (they might look the same but that's about it).😳😁

Edited February 15, 2023 by Dillon

[vampir0104 2]

4 hours ago, Dillon said:

As I'm the original poster of this thread I've come to have a different view and appreciation of what's been done here.  In my research the real bird in it's 'B" incarnation was a dog both on the ground and the air in the real world.  Pilots of newer models in WWII North Africa felt bad for pilots still flying this bird in combat.  Other countries relegated the 'B' model to training/none combat because it was such a dog. So what's been done here is realistic to what this bird was.  The P-40 didn't really come into it's own until the the 'F' variant (which is sold for MSFS by InBuilds).  By then it was too late as resources were being pulled to developer the first P-51's.  So what we have here is a realistic rendition.  There's no tampering with control settings or mod's anywhere that needs to be done.  If your controllers work just fine with other tail draggers, your good with the P-40B.  Now you just have to learn how to get it off the ground as it's supposed to be more difficult than the later model tail draggers.  If you make sure as much as possible to takeoff in the wind you should be good.  It's not forgiving as other tail draggers which is how it was in the real world.  For the record the Flying Tigers used the 'C' model which I guess was easier to handle than the 'B'.  Once you get it there's a since of satisfaction in taming the beast.  Good Luck!🍺

It's ironic the video I choose in my original post was of the 'F' model not understanding the glaring differences at the time.  With the improvements of MSFS ground handling and research into WWII era fighters like the Spitfire, a more completed understanding of 'A' models versus later variants is like talking about two different aircraft (they might look the same but that's about it).😳😁

 

Thanks for the further input.  I first experienced this aircraft in the E variant on IL-2, then the F that you mentioned earlier this month.   You are right though, this is rewarding to figure out... especially since I took this bird offroading more times than I care to admit before getting it right. :D

[OzWookiee 18]

4 hours ago, Dillon said:

As I'm the original poster of this thread I've come to have a different view and appreciation of what's been done here.  In my research the real bird in it's 'B" incarnation was a dog both on the ground and the air in the real world.  Pilots of newer models in WWII North Africa felt bad for pilots still flying this bird in combat.  Other countries relegated the 'B' model to training/none combat because it was such a dog. So what's been done here is realistic to what this bird was.  The P-40 didn't really come into it's own until the the 'F' variant (which is sold for MSFS by InBuilds).  By then it was too late as resources were being pulled to developer the first P-51's.  So what we have here is a realistic rendition.  There's no tampering with control settings or mod's anywhere that needs to be done.  If your controllers work just fine with other tail draggers, your good with the P-40B.  Now you just have to learn how to get it off the ground as it's supposed to be more difficult than the later model tail draggers.  If you make sure as much as possible to takeoff in the wind you should be good.  It's not forgiving as other tail draggers which is how it was in the real world.  For the record the Flying Tigers used the 'C' model which I guess was easier to handle than the 'B'.  Once you get it there's a since of satisfaction in taming the beast.  Good Luck!🍺

It's ironic the video I choose in my original post was of the 'F' model not understanding the glaring differences at the time.  With the improvements of MSFS ground handling and research into WWII era fighters like the Spitfire, a more completed understanding of 'A' models versus later variants is like talking about two different aircraft (they might look the same but that's about it).😳😁

;) So glad you've come to appreciate the many many hard hours of research and work that went into our very first aircraft.  A pussycat, the Tomahawk is NOT, however she IS incredibly rewarding when you understand what she requires of her pilot. She requires a lot of attention during ALL stages of flight, but when set for the current flight conditions she is a treat.

[vampir0104 2]

28 minutes ago, OzWookiee said:

😉 So glad you've come to appreciate the many many hard hours of research and work that went into our very first aircraft.  A pussycat, the Tomahawk is NOT, however she IS incredibly rewarding when you understand what she requires of her pilot. She requires a lot of attention during ALL stages of flight, but when set for the current flight conditions she is a treat.

Thanks for bringing is this beautiful bird!

[vampir0104 2]

Excuse me... Us*