Future of p3d ?

[Christopher Low 5,353]

1 hour ago, spilok said:

Have you ever been in a REAL MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR SIMULATOR?  Does the scenery resemble MSFS scenery or P3d scenery more?

I have a 60 minute session booked in a full motion A320 simulator in early December. I will be very interested to see the quality of the scenery. Of course, simulators like that do not need to render the cockpit, since you are sitting in a real one!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Christopher Low

[pgde 571]

Hey Chris -- please do a report on your experience in the full motion sim! Sounds like fun!

Have a great weekend....

[spilok 1,134]

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I’ve been in the former British Airways Concorde simulator at Brooklands Museum near Heathrow back in 2016. Scenery was similar to that in FS9 but with enhanced London, New York and Hong Kong Kai Tak scenery.

You don’t need too much as it affects performance and let’s face it, when you’re in the left hand seat of the world’s fastest passenger aircraft the last thing on your mind is how detailed the scenery is! 😉

Your main interest is slamming those throttles forward with full reheat watching real instruments come to life! 😁👍

Exactly my point.  MSFS is beautiful and I use it...BUT it's more a VFR game for me.  P3d, for me, at least, is a real flight simulator!

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by spilok

[coastaldriver 919]

Well OFT but enjoy a full motion sim. A PC based simulator is useful adjunct to a full motion simulator but it is for procedural training not endorsements. LMs system is also used for full motion systems.  I trained in them and trained real world pilots with them for years. My first exposure to a full motion sim was an eye opener, these sims are complete accurate replicas of the real aeroplane, all the systems, switches controls etc is there. They are designed to train and type endorse pilots then to retest them regularly - a lot cheaper than the real thing and less dangerous. We used to call them the torture boxes because your sim session would always be 4-5 hours of full on everything. The controller and instructor can control every parameter - give you any failure or system anomaly they want (aft centre of gravity etc etc). The view out the window is secondary - these sort of aeroplanes you fly by the numbers, you learn and rehearse check lists, company standard operating procedures and fly in the sim every possible instrument approach you can think off. 

Standard session - take off climb cruise, unusual attitude recovery full and limited panel, engine failures, hydraulic failures, instrument failures, fires out of control engines you name it anything that could happed for real. Your instrument rating check would include an IMC departure in zero visibility, engine failure after or before V2, fires, instrument approaches all of them, ILS, VOR NDB GPS all being done in real time with a beast (bells going off, lights etc etc). Done ditching procedures, depressurisation emergency descents. 

The bottom line is you have to know the aeroplane backwards before you even get to a sim - all the checklists, all the manuals, all the charts all the procedures and your doing them all for real. 

Anecdote -  I remember well my first introduction to one with a flight director and the dour scottish checkie explaining the key to keeping it all working " Keep that dot covered with cross son, its the cats word not allowed and if you don't it's going to s**t in your face" boy was he right. 

So the scenery and the outside is secondary and of least importance in a real world sim (military or civilian) atter all, if your acquiring a target or preparing to deliver ordinance or if you doing an ILS to a runway with less than 1000 m vis (fog or whatever) there is no outside view to admire you got your hand and head full and your busy you completely focused on the instruments and systems and you fly it accordingly. 

LMs P3D lets me replicate a lot of that and because of its accuracy and fidelity you can practice anything you like as in the real world aeroplane or simulator, but its not rocking and rolling with you strapped in with it. MSFS will never do that it is not designed to its a game a big leggo set!

Edited November 14, 2021 by coastaldriver

[spilok 1,134]

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I have a 60 minute session booked in a full motion A320 simulator in early December. I will be very interested to see the quality of the scenery. Of course, simulators like that do not need to render the cockpit, since you are sitting in a real one!

Lucky YOU!  Can't wait to hear about your experience and observations.

 

[F737MAX 5,604]

4 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I have a 60 minute session booked in a full motion A320 simulator in early December. I will be very interested to see the quality of the scenery.

I went to BAFT at Heathrow some 10 years ago to use a full motion 737 sim and was somewhat disappointed that my FS9 setup at home had much better visuals.

Interaction with authentic flight controls, buttons and switches, the sensation of moving in response to my inputs and due to turbulence, plus a training captain who got me to land an engine out approach with slight x-wind. All of that meant the spartan visuals were quickly forgotten in an experience that felt as exciting as my first time up in a Cessna. As pgde points out, please do give us a write-up and enjoy the session!

 

Quote

Have you ever been in a REAL MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR SIMULATOR?  Does the scenery resemble MSFS scenery or P3d scenery more?

From what I've seen, I think the CAE simulators have some of the 'best' graphics right now, which look to be on a par with a slightly enhanced version of vanilla P3D.

By using terabytes of photoreal scenery in my P3D, it looks comparable to some parts of MSFS. To make it compete further I'd like to see a future point version of v5 give us better cloud layer and weather front representation when using EA, more realistic lighting during sunny conditions and a map befitting the 2020s.

[BostonJeremy77 519]

@Ray Proudfoot

 

It's a total shame, mate. I consider you such a valuable, knowledgeable bloke when it comes to P3D and especially Concorde. But in your posts you strike me as someone who hasn't experienced MSFS due to his own stubborn decision. Which is fine, right? If you are just another user. Your reasons sound like someone set in their ways and there isn't anything wrong with it except for the fact that you are a moderator of Avsim that appears to constantly further your own preferences ahead of aviation enthusiasts as a whole. You defend P3D (which I love) constantly while discrediting MSFS and I just would have thought better than to do that. Regards, Sir.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

10 minutes ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

@Ray Proudfoot

 

It's a total shame, mate. I consider you such a valuable, knowledgeable bloke when it comes to P3D and especially Concorde. But in your posts you strike me as someone who hasn't experienced MSFS due to his own stubborn decision. Which is fine, right? If you are just another user. Your reasons sound like someone set in their ways and there isn't anything wrong with it except for the fact that you are a moderator of Avsim that appears to constantly further your own preferences ahead of aviation enthusiasts as a whole. You defend P3D (which I love) constantly while discrediting MSFS and I just would have thought better than to do that. Regards, Sir.

Whether I buy MSFS or not has nothing to do with my position at AvSim. I refuse to buy something I still consider to be in beta with these huge frequent updates. And neither am I lover of forced updates. Customers should have a degree of control over software on their machines.

I am under no obligation as a moderator to promote any flight sim product. That would make any staffer’s position untenable. It’s a ridiculous statement.

I don’t defend P3D at all. I’ve been extremely frustrated with LM at their refusal to engage in any form of communication regarding both the DXGI problem and more recently the huge reduction of parking positions in v5. You appear to have overlooked that.

[psolk 3,040]

10 hours ago, spilok said:

Exactly my point.  MSFS is beautiful and I use it...BUT it's more a VFR game for me.  P3d, for me, at least, is a real flight simulator!

 

Why?

What is this misnomer that MSFS is "VFR" only?  I am really baffled by this.  I've done PLENTY of IFR in MSFS even tried to land in Rothera in 0/0 and ended up crashing into a mountain.  I'd like to hear the technical reasoning MSFS is VFR only...  SID's/Star's all supported, weather can depict IFR conditions, planes gauges can show all the required info.  So why exactly is MSFS VFR only?  Genuinely curious because I think this is one of the biggest fallacies P3D users seem to believe.  

No different the FS9 users who said FSX was nothing more than improved graphics, VFR only and if you wanted to fly a heavy with full procedures you has to stick with FS9.  That was incorrect too.  

@Ray Proudfoot there is definitely a precedent that users who don't own products typically don't comment on them.  I think that is what the user above is referring to.  You have made a lot of comments about MSFS, quite a few that have been factually incorrect, you have stated to you it is a Beta, you won't do streaming, it doesn't have historical weather so it's useless to you etc etc but you DO continue to comment on it.  So I don't think it is so much about your position as a mod as it is you have never even tried it so really have no basis for your comments a lot of which are just hypothetical anyway.  Not to be disrespectful but I don't comment on X-Plane because I don't own it and have no basis to comment.

You may not see it this way but others certainly read your comments as P3D is the only real sim and MSFS has X,Y,Z, show stopping shortcomings. Even your comments about FSL never bringing the Concorde to MSFS are based on speculation but you keep repeating it.  You know how much I appreciate what you do and appreciate it but yes, your MSFS comments have become entirely predictable.  I will say your personal bias is more than evident in your posting which is "typically" something moderators try to avoid.  

Most users who repeatedly comment on something they don't own, especially to point out the same shortcomings repeatedly tend to get a slap on the wrist from the moderators and asked to curtail their comments. 😉  If I were here talking about all the things P3D doesn't do and you found out I don't even own the program, never tried it and was exclusively a user of another sim I'd probably be politely asked to leave the topic and stop commenting.  

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by psolk

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

 

@Ray Proudfoot there is definitely a precedent that users who don't own products typically don't comment on them.  I think that is what the user above is referring to.  You have made a lot of comments about MSFS, quite a few that have been factually incorrect, you have stated to you it is a Beta, you won't do streaming, it doesn't have historical weather so it's useless to you etc etc but you DO continue to comment on it.  So I don't think it is so much about your position as a mod as it is you have never even tried it so really have no basis for your comments a lot of which are just hypothetical anyway.  Not to be disrespectful but I don't comment on X-Plane because I don't own it and have no basis to comment. 

Most users who repeatedly comment on something they don't own, especially to point out the same shortcomings repeatedly tend to get a slap on the wrist from the moderators and asked to curtail their comments. 😉  

My comments about MSFS are about key elements that I don't like. I keep my replies respectful. Why should I not be allowed to have an opinion about things I don't like about it? If I bought it and then complained people would rightly ask "well if you knew that why did you buy it?"

The very fact it was in alpha for well over a year followed by a very short time in beta suggests to me it was rushed out. Then the frequent huge updates all point to changes that should have been done when it was in beta.

You seem unable to separate my moderator role to that of a member who has an opinion on a product. They are entirely separate elements. Can't you see that? I doubt anyone is influenced by what I say about MSFS.

I really do object to people criticising me for having an opinion. I don't challenge their right to criticise so they shouldn't criticise mine.

[psolk 3,040]

17 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

My comments about MSFS are about key elements that I don't like. I keep my replies respectful. Why should I not be allowed to have an opinion about things I don't like about it? If I bought it and then complained people would rightly ask "well if you knew that why did you buy it?"

The very fact it was in alpha for well over a year followed by a very short time in beta suggests to me it was rushed out. Then the frequest huge updates all point to changes that should have been done when it was in beta.

You seem unable to separate my moderator role to that of a member who has an opinion on a product. They are entirely separate elements. Can't you see that? I doubt anyone is influenced by what I say about MSFS.

I really do object to people criticising me for having an opinion. I don't challenge their right to criticise so they shouldn't criticise mine.

Ray, no one is criticizing you for having an opinion. We are all SO appreciative of what you do!!!

Actually I think a number of people are influenced by your comments, especially as a moderator, hence when you make comments  it absolutely carries more weight with that MODERATOR next to your name.  So to keep saying the same thing about MSFS being in Beta, all the things it can't do, FSL never bringing their Concorde to MSFS, your comments about weather that aren't always correct, this commentary that MSFS is VFR only all carry a lot more weight when they come from a moderator ho doesn't even own the product and never tried it.

Again, if my "opinion" was P3D doesn't do X, Y, Z, that 5.2 is nothing more than a Beta, EA is garbage, I can't do X because Y add-on wasn't upgraded, I had nothing positive to say AND  I didn't even own P3D would I not be asked to stop posting?  Yes, it's my opinion but that doesn't give me freedom to express it... 

I have lot's of "opinions" moderators have disagreed with and removed and I try to refrain from commenting on products I do not own or care to try.  That is generally encouraged and the moderators would expect that of me and I think as users we would hope the moderators would behave the same.  Fair play?  

It is the fact we do respect you so much that your comments do carry more weight Ray, you may not think so but your words go a long way on these forums.  A lot of people respect and listen to what you say! 

Edited November 14, 2021 by psolk

[remcosol 39]

It seems like both p3dv5 and ms2020 were rushed out to compete with each other.

Personally i don't think V5.2 still is a beta, the cloud thing still is but the rest isn't in my opinion . Also because you can use the EA without the clouds now. I do think it was rushed to compete against ms2020, witch is a bit odd because they are not really competing with each other...or are they...

MS2020 was a new product they rushed out of the door to be head to head against V5 i think. 

For me , being a professional pilot and having spend hundreds of hours in full flight simulators, i can confirm that a professional sims visual is no where near as detailed as most eye-candy pc sims are. They are getting better but they all have the "Standard" world , like p3d has and you have to pay for enhanced airports , just like we do.

They are about systems, flight characteristics, and the feeling of flight that requires a smooth!!!! stutterfree visual system!!! not the stutterfest clips that i see most of the time on youtube with everything maxed out.

Remember that   with zero flight time training the first time you actually see the real aircraft there are passengers on board so the sim has to be really good!!!!

Training has progressed or rather changed a lot over the years. You used to get weeks of groundschool 15 years ago, no you get a dvd or usb stick with a CBT program on it that you do for 2 days and then straight into the sim for the minimum amount of hours that they can legally give you to get qualified. A lot of your own time is invested now in typeratings ( and money as well in some low cost airlines) .

 

For me in my home sim its about the feeling of flight and not the eyecandy.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

48 minutes ago, psolk said:

Ray, no one is criticizing you for having an opinion. We are all SO appreciative of what you do!!!

Actually I think a number of people are influenced by your comments, especially as a moderator, hence when you make comments  it absolutely carries more weight with that MODERATOR next to your name.  So to keep saying the same thing about MSFS being in Beta, all the things it can't do, FSL never bringing their Concorde to MSFS, your comments about weather that aren't always correct, this commentary that MSFS is VFR only all carry a lot more weight when they come from a moderator ho doesn't even own the product and never tried it.

It's an unpaid position that requires frequent visits each and every day. The only benefit I can see is I have the ability to upload jpgs directly instead of hosting them. That's it! You don't see all the rubbish posted by spammers because we delete them. You see a pretty purified forum.

I never recall seeing posts from people expressing gratitude for my opinions on MSFS. They do when I recommend monitors because that's something I have a passion for. In many other forums you'll see the disclaimer that "my opinion does not reflect that of this forum". I don't bother putting that in my sig because it should be obvious.

I don't say MSFS is in beta. I say I consider it to be in beta. There is a difference. One is a fact, the other is an opinion. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference. And the things it can't do are factual, not an opinion. You cannot prevent a forced update. You cannot have historical weather. Facts.

I've already said why I don't believe FSL will bring Concorde to MSFS. No point repeating that.

What statements about weather have I said that aren't always correct?

How do you know I haven't experienced it? I have seen it on friend's PCs and whilst the scenery aspect is wonderful and so much better than P3D even with all my addons there is so much more to a simulator than the scenery.

[Cruachan 705]

45 minutes ago, psolk said:

A lot of people respect and listen to what you say!

Count me in. However, I would like to think that as an ardent simmer of flight who believes there is some residual functioning grey matter between his ears and, like most of us here, remains capable of identifying and seeing past any imparted ’wisdom/opinion’ from anyone, including Moderators, who have little or no hands-on experience of the sim in question.

Some time ago, I purchased and installed MSFS and, for reasons best known to a psychiatrist, continue to expose myself to those imposed all too frequent and frankly ludicrous updating procedures in the hope that one day I can be persuaded to adopt it as a worthy companion to P3D. That day has not yet arrived. Woe betide anyone, like me, with a slow broadband d/l service. I feel that until ASOBO/MS get their act together we should be taking every opportunity to expose this nonsense. Newcomers need to be warned what to expect before they jump in and part with their cash.

Mike

 

[Iadbound 211]

I was new to MSFS 2020 and flight sim more generally in August 2020. I had dabbled with MSFS back in the 1990s but never really got into it, but when I saw the previews for MSFS 2020 I knew I wanted to try again. So I bought it.

I don’t feel deceived, tricked or otherwise mislead by Microsoft or Asobo.  True, it’s still a work in progress, but I’ve since learned every sim is a work in progress.  Indeed I’ve poured plenty of money into XP and P3D too, and none of the sims is really optimal in terms of meshing performance, top quality add-ons, graphics and immersion. So I use each of them where they fit my needs for a particular flight. But . . . I’m really rooting for one sim to come out a clear winner - at least for a few years - so I can direct my spend in one direction.  Based on where developers are spending their time and announcing products, it seems like P3D will be left behind. Meanwhile, it feels like MSFS or maybe XP12 will surge ahead.