Future of p3d ?

[Christopher Low 5,352]

I have only recently reinstalled P3Dv4.5 after a six months "flightsim burnout" break. I had to read the PMDG 737NGX Tutorial No.1 again before completing my first quick test flight, because I had forgotten the procedure flow!! Anyway, I am having that 60 minute full motion flight simulator session nine days from now, so I need to remind myself of at least the basic stuff....even if this will be in an A320 simulator rather than a 737. Nevertheless, I fly my 737 with a joystick, so that gives me a slight head start

[BostonJeremy77 519]

On 11/28/2021 at 6:49 AM, Multisim said:

Again, exactly the same arguments as we still get from the grumpy old FS9 guys - "it's so stable, it just works".

That's fine and all, but just be aware that the rest of the world will be moving on with or without you. This topic was supposed to be about the future. No matter how good you think a software is today, if the developer doesn't care, someone else will happily take their place. And the 3rd party market and the community will follow. And everything will start to degrade.

I know that the intentions are good but I think that the community's defending of LM instead of putting pressure on them to fix things and keep up with the competitors is partly to blame for this situation. If the X-plane or MSFS developer or any other software developer would act the same way as LM, people would be furious. But because of the FS/FSX history, the Prepar3d users have learned that this is considered normal and they tend to think that active development is when you get a tiny hotfix once a year.

That's all fine as long as you know what you're talking about, because I am the very definition of NOT a "grumpy old FS9 guy"... I came to P3D FROM MSFS2020 (which is my first desktop flight sim)... And I came to XP even later than P3D. The entire reason I came to P3D in January of 2021 is BECAUSE of what MSFS was at that point - no good aircraft. I didn't want to wait until good stuff starts showing up, so I invested thousands of dollars into P3D and XP stuff at the SAME time as I invested into MSFS. So, no... With all due respect, as a late adopter of P3D, I jumped into it head-first because it offered me things MSFS can't offer. And it STILL does! MSFS has gotten mostly better over time, but it's still a far cry from what one would consider a reliable, stable platform. I have about 75 third party aircraft I bought for MSFS and granted most of them have since been deleted (because a lot were junk), even the GREAT ones essentially need to be updated EVERY TIME MSFS has a major update (which is about once a month!!!)... if that's not instability, I don't know what is! Third party devs are at their wits end sometimes, justifiably so, just TRYING to keep up with the ever-changing core sim. Every time Microsoft updates the flight model or the way HUDs work or effects like smoke etc it breaks ALL aircraft that utilize those aspects of flight model, effects, HUDs, etc. As in - renders them COMPLETELY broken. This is a monthly affair. People complain about tweaking settings and maintenance of these "older" sims, but... there is WAY more maintenance with MSFS. Airports and aircraft have to be CONSTANTLY updated as of now. 

I love MSFS. And I give Ray word not allowed about him not even trying MSFS thus far, but I can see where he is coming from. It's just very much a moving target. It's frustrating and beautiful. YES, I think it's GOING TO BE a better sim than anything else EVENTUALLY. But right now? It's growing pains left and right. Ray keeps saying "if I started up a sim for a flight and was told there is a mandatory update, that'd be infuriating..." I am not even complaining about the 30 gig updates themselves! I am tired of having to update all my stuff AFTER the actual updates. I have to download 1.5 gig aircraft ALL the time, because there are ALWAYS new versions of them, simply because the sim keeps breaking them. 

[jcomm 5,919]

I did try and was WOW! and HEY! about MFS when I installed it for the first time and up to SU7, but then, why am I back to P3dv5.2, and not even X-Plane 11 ?

1) There is no consistent / mostly complete / flawless weather injection solution available for MFS, and their default weather, while great visually can't give me the end results that I ask for. The alternatives for X-Plane, including Active Sky, are still not up to the level I get in P3D either, even with one of the latest visuals enhancements;

2) There is no way to install a full World coverage with the level of detail I just need and want, giving me actually a more believable night cities lighting effect than what I get in either MFS or XP11 like P3dv5.2 HF2 with EA and cloud volumetrics full left ( NADA ) and the gorgeous effects provided by Orbx Global + Libraries + Global Airports free enhancements;

3) There's simply no Airbus ( yet, and yes I aplaud the work being done, for free !, by FBW ) that can give me the detail / completeness and functionality of FSLabs Airbuses, or the PMDG 777;

4) I actually, all summed up, don't find any benefit from their "massaged" new flight dynamics that does a "lot" of stuff but in the end is rulled by exactly the same aerodynamic FM parameters that rule the P3D "Legacy" FM, inherited from FSX and in the case of P3D enhanced in some aspects. There is, nonetheless, a positive update done by ASOBO that I would really like to see available in P3D, and already posted in the old days and very recenty at the Prepared forums - roll rate / inertia without being throttled. It is now possible to aileron roll an aerobatic Extra 300 and stop the roll almost "instantly" with no lag like what we always get in P3D / FSX. X-Plane has always done that...

5) I am more on wait for XP12 than for any worth trying updates for MFS because honestly the more I see MFS evolving the more I watch how they appeal more to the arcade side of flightsim gamming than to the one pleased by more serious aspects of flight simulation.

So, for me I sincerely hope that LM keeps the offer as they do, available for guys liek me who even benefit from a 1 month license, because I do not use a simulator for more than 2 weeks in a row 🙂

P3D also saves me a LOT of problems with internet bandwith and dependency on being "connected"...

Edited November 29, 2021 by jcomm

[Iadbound 211]

6 hours ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

I came to P3D FROM MSFS2020

Right there with you, except I went MSFS, XP, P3D. And like you, I expect MSFS will eventually be my go to sim, but meanwhile I’m still getting add-ons for all of them. 

[Recognition 91]

"5) I am more on wait for XP12 than for any worth trying updates for MFS because honestly the more I see MFS evolving the more I watch how they appeal more to the arcade side of flightsim gamming than to the one pleased by more serious aspects of flight simulation."

Yes thats how I see it and feel it. Its like you are in a shopping mall and you have these sit down consoles where all younger age`s are bashing away the games controllers. 

With MSFS it just has this arcade coating to it for me 

[chapstick 2,757]

1 hour ago, Recognition said:

"5) I am more on wait for XP12 than for any worth trying updates for MFS because honestly the more I see MFS evolving the more I watch how they appeal more to the arcade side of flightsim gamming than to the one pleased by more serious aspects of flight simulation."

Yes thats how I see it and feel it. Its like you are in a shopping mall and you have these sit down consoles where all younger age`s are bashing away the games controllers. 

With MSFS it just has this arcade coating to it for me 

So what? FSX was the same way. While kids were dicking around in multiplayer buzzing other players in F-18's, you could just as easily be in the same sim following real-world procedures in PMDG's NGX on VATSIM. Once devs like Leonardo, PMDG, Fenix, etc. release on MSFS, most of us will be able to achieve ~90% of the functionality that we're using in P3D, while paying less for add-ons. 

[jcomm 5,919]

3 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

So what? FSX was the same way. While kids were dicking around in multiplayer buzzing other players in F-18's, you could just as easily be in the same sim following real-world procedures in PMDG's NGX on VATSIM. Once devs like Leonardo, PMDG, Fenix, etc. release on MSFS, most of us will be able to achieve ~90% of the functionality that we're using in P3D, while paying less for add-ons. 

You have a point here for sure @Chapstick and indeed that's the perspective I take when using MFS.

Actually simming for me is always seen as a game - I play a game !  Yet, in my game I look after the most realistic representation of the RW so that when I play being a ww2 fighter pilot in IL-2 Great Battles, or being an airline pilot in MFS, XP, P3D, ELITE, PSX... or a GA pilot, helicopter, ... I can use the simulator to actually experiment / learn / get current in RW procedures and techniques.

What can make MFS different is just what made FSX different - good add-ons. But in order to be able to provide good / detailled / "pro-like" add-ons, developers have to have available the SDKs, and be able to sell their products for the money that such complexity implies. I hope this can happen in the future. I did buy day 1 the PMDG dc-6, and it is surely a very nice add-on. I also di use the FBW-A320N which, for free, is trully wonderful...

 

[newtie 533]

1 hour ago, jcomm said:

Actually simming for me is always seen as a game - I play a game

I’ve never considered P3D a game.

Other sims, perhaps.

[jcomm 5,919]

37 minutes ago, newtie said:

I’ve never considered P3D a game.

Other sims, perhaps.

Well, this is a pov... For me unless you're a professional or private pilot and are using the simulator to train some procedure, technique that can positively be practised using the desktop sim, then you're not gamming... Other than that, it's a "sophisticated" game where we ( at least I ) pretend to be RW pilots doing their RW jobs / activities

I became a simmer around 10 years after I got my PPL in the very early eighties, and I have logged way more hours playing than flying for real, and sometimes I can say that helped me becomming a better pilot IRL, even if playing, so, really no problem in playing - it doesn't hav to have a negative connotation.

Edited November 29, 2021 by jcomm

[BostonJeremy77 519]

28 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Well, this is a pov... For me unless you're a professional or private pilot and are using the simulator to train some procedure, technique that can positively be practised using the desktop sim, then you're not gamming... Other than that, it's a "sophisticated" game where we ( at least I ) pretend to be RW pilots doing their RW jobs / activities

I became a simmer around 10 years after I got my PPL in the very early eighties, and I have logged way more hours playing than flying for real, and sometimes I can say that helped me becomming a better pilot IRL, even if playing, so, really no problem in playing - it doesn't hav to have a negative connotation.

You know... I agree. I also think there is a wealth of learning to be done in the sim. For example, yesterday I was watching a real world pilot on YouTube that posted his "first emergency" video... look it up. It's a GA plane in the Southwest USA that flew into some clouds and was very worried about his visual approach. He was, thankfully, IFR rated and ATC vectored him in eventually. But in the midst of it all he lost his airspeed indicator and it took him 10 minutes or so to figure out that he didn't have pitot heat on. He did all sorts of sh__. He pulled circuit breakers, etc.. beating his head against the wall on why his airspeed indicator was not working and eventually figured out it was pitot tubes being frozen flying through moisture in icing conditions. 

As a non-real world pilot with thousands of hours in the sim, on a GA plane, pitot heat would be the FIRST thing I'd check when losing airspeed indicator. I was actually blown away how that has NOT occurred to him as the first thing to check. Every time I lost airspeed indicator in the sim, pitot heat was the first thing to check! 😉

Simple things like that, really... but also, flying approaches and navigation is really helpful when you do it in the sim a million times, especially in P3D with Garmin trainers for avionics. 

[SAS443 1,723]

35 minutes ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

Every time I lost airspeed indicator in the sim, pitot heat was the first thing to check!

Thats b/c is it basically the only error you have experienced in FS regarding ASI.

Real world is always more complex. And this guy was already stressed being in un-planned IMC, the human mind gets easily task saturated meaning troubleshooting ad-hoc issues is not that easy.

But from the comfort of your home it probably is 🙂

We are humans we forget basic stuff all the time (checklists anyone)...I flew with an instructor of 11.000hrs of experience (former airline pilot) some time ago. During one of the flights he dialed in best climb speed on the autopilot but was baffled why we didn't climb. But all he had to do was to check the flaps (selected at 25 degrees, by him!...)  that was dragging along making it virtually impossible to gain a proper climb rate...

Edited November 29, 2021 by SAS443

[Juliett Alfa Romeo 530]

1 hour ago, newtie said:

I’ve never considered P3D a game.

If Prepar3D is a game, it's bad!

[jcomm 5,919]

29 minutes ago, Juliett Alfa said:

If Prepar3D is a game, it's bad!

LPMA 05, my preferred approach 😃

[Multisim 116]

35 minutes ago, Juliett Alfa said:

If Prepar3D is a game, it's bad!

Yet, people seem to use this "it's not a game" argument , or shall we say defence mechanism. Everytime people point out how ridiculous Prepar3d looks and behaves and all the 15 year old bugs with stuttering and morphing terrain textures and Commodore 64 looking autogen etc, we hear that it's because Prepar3d is "not a game" and "it's all about procedures" and "I don't need the visuals to fly my heavy".

It's always fun to remind the "it's not a game" people that LM picked FSX as the base for their sim, i.e. a game where you got points for dropping flour bombs and went on rescue missions to save the lost elephants.

 

 

 

[BostonJeremy77 519]

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

Thats b/c is it basically the only error you have experienced in FS regarding ASI.

Real world is always more complex. And this guy was already stressed being in un-planned IMC, the human mind gets easily task saturated meaning troubleshooting ad-hoc issues is not that easy.

But from the comfort of your home it probably is 🙂

We are humans we forget basic stuff all the time (checklists anyone)...I flew with an instructor of 11.000hrs of experience (former airline pilot) some time ago. During one of the flights he dialed in best climb speed on the autopilot but was baffled why we didn't climb. But all he had to do was to check the flaps (selected at 25 degrees, by him!...)  that was dragging along making it virtually impossible to gain a proper climb rate...

Yeah, I can see that... Still, I think the sim experience does provide you with some stuff that gets integrated into your brain (and some of it is probably some bad habits, to be honest). I do think that some people get stressed out easier than others. In terms of his equipment, he had synthetic vision on his avionics suite. That itself... well, I look at it as a life-saver in IMC. Yeah, you're unfamiliar with terrain, but it's right there in front of you without atmospheric obstruction. While a small token, it should provide you with a little bit more peace of mind when you can't see s**t out the window. 😉 It's not perfect, but it's better than a steam gauge cockpit in terms of that. I know in the sim I have managed to land in some situations where without SV I'd most definitely not make it. In sim, and ESPECIALLY in a real world situation. 

But yeah, it definitely was a mistake to fly into that. He should have turned around earlier. 

Interestingly, his stall alarm kept going off. I'd be interested in knowing what exactly triggered that or if it's an automatic alarm that sounds off as soon as you lose airspeed indicators. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by BostonJeremy77