College vs. Flight School

[Guest WhiteIce89]

Well this is all a great wealth of information, guys :D.I still can't decide whether I want to take the professional pilot degree. I'm nearly 100% sure about wanting to go through with this and I'm serious about it. I know that if I take a different major, say, in design, I'm gonna feel like I'm wasting time and money. I know that if I get a different job, I'm gonna look up at the sky and regret I didn't go through with what I really wanted to do. As far as money goes, I wouldn't want to do this if money was my first and foremost priority. I gotta ask though, what would be the best way to pay for one's training? Take a student loan or something like that, or save up first and then get your training? I would think the former makes more sense because once you finish your training and gather up enough hours to go regional, you'll be able to pay back your loan fairly quickly.

[Bob Scott 7,715]

I'd strongly advise against going into debt for flight training. Once you "go regional" you'll be lucky to pay your third of the rent on an apartment and buy Ramen noodles to eat, much less pay off any substantial debt.The "A" answer, as a few others have noted, is to get a real education which will present you with workable options for the rest of your life. Alas, though, there are many options available, even at prestigous universities, to squander your money and years of effort on an academic education that is without much application in the working world. Degrees like music therapy, sociology, psychology, audio-visual science etc, may be interesting, but they often prove useless in the context of making a living, leaving you trained to wax eloquently on the esoteric whilst standing in the unemployment line or selling cars at the local Hyundai dealership.A Hey-Diddle-Diddle-Embry-Riddle degree in Aviation Science might get you to a career as a pilot, or it might get you to a career gassing bizjets at an FBO in Tulsa. An engineering degree from any reputable state university followed by a commercial flight school or a commission in the USAF or USN gives you a shot at that flying along with many alternatives. Or you could take a stand against the bourgeoisie, stay home and educate youself between episodes of The Simpsons... :-xxrotflmaoCheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

I am going to throw a slightly different slant on this based on the UK.To get hired over here by the major carriers requires a frozen ATP.Major carriers do take on low time direct entry pilots but normally employ through training organisations who put young pilots through a stiff selection process.Those who are deemed to have the "right stuff" then have to finance their own A320 or 737 type rating or pay back the type rating with reduced pay with the airline they are contracted with.They then can be in the right seat of a 737 with 250 hrs.No body is going to finance you up to a frozen ATP and there is an arguement that an aviation career is mainly for the wealthy or those young people who have access to funds from relatives.I once met the youngest 737 captain who I was told was only 23 and worked for a low cost airline(RyanAir)so there are those who go straight from school into aviation.Bob is right! Even over here there are many useless university degrees which will at best be part of a requirement for a job interview and thats it!Remember too a degree is no guarantee of a job even if your aviation career goes belly up.Wasting time on some insignificant degree can cause other problems.You could spend three years doing such a degree while the job market in aviation is good only to find another 9/11 or collapse in world economies makes you as a 250 hr Frozen ATP worthless. IE your degree could cost you your aviation career.I believe a degree should be part of a requirement for your chosen career.If you want to be a lawyer you need a relevant degree, a doctor the same.Aviation should be no different!My advice would be to find out if first you meet the medical requirements and personality requirements for an Airline pilot and then gear your path to best achieve your chosen career whatever that may be.Peter

[Guest WhiteIce89]

Well the greatest advantage of choosing a collegiate aviation degree is the fact that I can get started so soon. Plus, I would still be eligible for financial aid and scholarships, for both the college tuition as well as flight training.I don't necessarily agree that an aviation career is mainly for the wealthy, it's just about how much one is willing to devote and invest into one's education.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Well the greatest advantage of choosing a collegiate aviation>degree is the fact that I can get started so soon. Plus, I>would still be eligible for financial aid and scholarships,>for both the college tuition as well as flight training.>>I don't necessarily agree that an aviation career is mainly>for the wealthy, it's just about how much one is willing to>devote and invest into one's education.You have to remember I am talking about europe.I do not know what sort of assistance and grants are available in the USA.in Europe for a young person the costs are huge not only for the training to get up to a Frozen ATP stage but also financing type ratings which seem to be the norm for low time pilots trying to get into major airlines.Over here those training costs even attract VAT (value added tax at 17.5%) which is crazy especially as other forms of education are VAT free. Hence my comments that becoming an airline pilot is a very expensive business and most young people cannot raise the funds.The airlines want jet time and preferably type ratings which makes it very difficult for a young guy with maybe 250 hrs and 30 hours multi to break through.Even with the required finance the selection process is tough for low time direct entry pilots which is also why I mentioned checking that you have the required aptitude and skills as well as personality to make it through those selection processes.Peter

[Guest Kingair315]

>Degrees like music therapy, sociology, psychology, audio-visual >science etc, may be interesting, but they often prove useless in the>context of making a living, leaving you trained to wax>eloquently on the esoteric whilst standing in the unemployment>line or selling cars at the local Hyundai dealership.Wrong. Ive -never- stood in an unemployment line since 1942, when applying for my first job, before going to school. Since then, Ive been hired by every employer where I applied for work, in Hospitals, Clinics, etc.. My wife is a music therapist, with a major in psychology, and has worked in state hospitals for decades. Has never been out of work. Never had to work in any other field, but there are many unemployed pilots.You might do best talking about the road to a Pilots Career, but know little or nothing about a career in some things you mention. Ive been a psychologist for over 50 years, and made a good living. $75-150 an hour is not uncommon in the field if you are good at what you do. Especially in private practice where you set our own fees. No, you will not get that as a beginner, just as a newby pilot makes about $20k a year. BUT, my first years as a psychologist, I made more than any beginning pilot made, and that was in the 50's, when $20k was worth a LOT more than today. Continuing your education, an MA, Ph.D. means much more. The best knowledge in the field does -not- come from the Universities, that like any field, is just paying your dues. Attending Major Seminars around the country, learning from researchers, learning state of the art methods which wont be taught in a Univ. until 20-30 years in the future. Means being more effective as a therapist, and more self-satisfaction.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>The "A" answer, as a few others have noted, is to get a real education which will present you with workable options for the rest of your life. Alas, though, there are many options available, even at prestigous universities, to squander your money and years of effort on an academic education that is without much application in the working world.

[Guest WhiteIce89]

As far as options go, Uncle Sam is out of the picture.. to become a pilot in the Air Force you need a college degree (go figure). I agree that the title "Professional Pilot" alone implies a great deal of dedication and training.

[Bob Scott 7,715]

>>>Degrees like music therapy, sociology, psychology,>audio-visual >science etc, may be interesting, but they often>prove useless in the>>context of making a living, leaving you trained to wax>>eloquently on the esoteric whilst standing in the>unemployment>>line or selling cars at the local Hyundai dealership.>>Wrong. Ive -never- stood in an unemployment line since 1942,>when applying for my first job, before going to school. Since>then, Ive been hired by every employer where I applied for>work, in Hospitals, Clinics, etc.. My wife is a music>therapist, with a major in psychology, and has worked in state>hospitals for decades. Has never been out of work. Never had>to work in any other field, but there are many unemployed>pilots.Great...you're the exception. But what I said was that psych degrees often prove useless in the context of making a living.>You might do best talking about the road to a Pilots Career,>but know little or nothing about a career in some things you>mention. Ive been a psychologist for over 50 years, and made>a good living. $75-150 an hour is not uncommon in the field>if you are good at what you do. Especially in private practice>where you set our own fees. The majority of the folks I know who squandered their time in college on a psych degree never ever worked in the field. Those who did take it to a useful conclusion nearly universally had to take it well past a bachelors degree to be employable. In all honesty, most of the psych majors I knew in college were there because they had to major in something.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Bob Scott 7,715]

>If you want to be a pilot the advice from some seems to be to>go and waste three years taking a degree in business studies>or something else incase you dont hack it as a pilot.>>Thats a bit like telling the would be Lawyer to get a degree>in domestic science incase he doesnt make it as a Lawyer or>the would be Doctor to take a degree ancient history incase he>doesnt hack it as a Doctor.>>Strange!!! Whatever your love and chosen career should be what>you aim for and what you train for.>There's a difference between education and training. Education is more broad-based...should teach the person *how* to think as much as it bestows a knowledge base upon which to draw from in a particular vocation. The lawyer and doctor are bad examples, because both have to already have an undergraduate education (generally in something else) prior to entering advanced studies leading to law/medicine degrees. The idea is diversification...as a pilot you're especially vulnerable due to the medical qualification requirements, and as we have seen recently, due to the deep cyclic nature of the industry. If you've chosen to train as a pilot while failing to diversify your options with a solid education, then every chest pain or market downturn (or market downturn leading to chest pain) poses you with the risk of a personal economic disaster.CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Donmo 6]

Get a degree in a USABLE field, THEN go for your ratings. This way, if the flying doesn't work out, you'll have something to fall back on to pay off those loans! You can do both at once, but that can be tough on the studies. Just don't drag your feet to get them both done if you want to be competitive in the market.Don

[byork 2,258]

"AVN 417 Homeland Security"This could actually come in handy when you're dealing with the Goons at airport security.Seriously, though, the decision you make in my view is mainly a function of your current financial situation. That's the big factor.-Bryan

[Guest Kingair315]

>Great...you're the exception. But what I said was that psych>degrees often prove useless in the context of making a>living.>>>You might do best talking about the road to a Pilots Career,>>but know little or nothing about a career in some things you>>mention. Ive been a psychologist for over 50 years, and>made>>a good living. $75-150 an hour is not uncommon in the field>>if you are good at what you do. Especially in private>practice where you set our own fees. >>The majority of the folks I know who squandered their time in>college on a psych degree never ever worked in the field. Then, the group you know in the field is very limited.Out of the class I was in, the majority are successful.>In all honesty, most of the psych majors I knew>in college were there because they had to major in>something.In other words, none you knew were serious about their education, and probably would have failed as badly, regardless of what field they went into. The number of college grads on skid row would surprise many. But the number who go to college just to have a good time, instead of an education is the cause. The person who began this conversation is obviously NOT such a person, but one who is serious about getting an education. I'd bet that he will be successful in -any- field. Just as the over 5700 psychologists in an organization we belong too, are very successful. There are a lot of Mensa Members who are unsuccessful also. Success does not depend upon how much money you had to attend college or how high your IQ, but how motivated you are. And those who apply themselves in any field, can succeed...

[Guest ZOTAN]

"I am unable to find a link to this column from the June 2006 issue of AOPA Pilot, but thought I'd mention it as the current condition of the airline pilot's profession is being discussed in a somewhat personal and detailed manner in a GA rag. I'm not sure how many here are AOPA members, so I thought I'd pass it along.It is discussed by Barry Schiff in his regular column, Proficient Pilot. He identifies himself as a retired TWA pilot with 34 years of flying for that airline. He essentially repeats the information noted here with great frequency. "The glory years are gone" Pay is low to start and vertical movement has slowed dramatically. He specifically describes the careers of his two sons, Brian and Paul.Brian was hired by TWA in 1989, furloughed from American in 2003 after TWA's "assimilation" and flies as a regional captain awaiting recall. His other son Paul was hired by Trans States in 2000, left after about four years and as many domicile changes for United Express where he had three domicile changes in a couple of years. He left the recently after realizing the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot (apologies to General Lee) was $30K and that he saw foresaw little potential for a career like his dad had enjoyed with TWA. Mr. Schiff then proceeds to plug his son's new on-line pet store venture but mentions how glad his son is to have a schedule stable enough to meet that special someone.His son Paul notes that it is easy to get a job at a regional because of attrition. He then noted that the attrition is not due to a move to the majors, but rather due to people leaving the industry.Mr. Schiff does note that these are anecdotal experiences, but in his discussions with many others in the arena, he can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without detailing the current realities concerning the probability of success. He then concludes by noting that flying itself is still rewarding and challenging.His final quote is "Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured the get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem."So, if any of the GA guys care, he has put the issue to the front in a rag aimed at the other than airline pilot crowd. Maybe the student pilot types will read and be influenced to question; maybe not."Quoted from flightinfo.comReally take a hard look at the industry. It really has taken a sharp turn for the worst in the last few years. Many pilots are leaving the industry all together. To the majority of them, it just isn't worth it anymore.

[elche 5]

You should try and find a job here in Australia! With only Qantas and Virgin Blue flying domestic, and a handful of regional airlines, it's almost impossible!My only chance of building up my flying hours past the minimum requirement of 150hrs for a CPL, is to get a C210 endorsement and get a job dropping sky divers up at the top end of Queensland, or move out to Western Australia, or Northern Territory and work for mining and oiling companies! Only problem for me is that for the next two years I need to be in Victoria finishing my degree!I have heard and read several times that there will be a huge demand for new pilots in Australia in the next 5 years due to a large number of pilots retiring and, the lack of local (Australian) students. This should be great news to me. But how will I survive the next five years? The only thing I can come up with is not to worry about the future of my aviation career. I fly because I love it, and not because I want to have a huge paycheck. Today, wanting to be a pilot is like wanting to be a Hollywood movie star. If you love what you do you will keep at it regardless of what it costs you. If you don't, you should consider taking on another career.Anyways...It's not all as bad as it seems in aviation. Take India for instance. Jet Airways, Air Sahara, GO, King Fisher, they are all taking Indian pilots with only CPL, 200hrs, 25 twin time (15 in plane, 10 in sims), and a type rating (ATR, A320, B737). Most of these guys (if not all of them) fly all of their 200hrs in C152's!!!! Its crazy!! And for ex-pats, they want CPL with 500hrs and must be twin endorsed.India is definitely in my plans...

Have a great Day/Night where ever you are! :-wave

http://www.3dflite.com/dac/img/BANNER1.gif Student Pilot - YSBKC152/Tomahawk/Warrior/Archer/Duchess62.2 hrs Total