DC6 refunds for X Box

[Bobsk8 12,678]

3 hours ago, Matchstick said:

Short answer - Yes.

Developers are given a software emulator of an X-Box and it appears MS testing use that as well so the first time anything runs on a real XB is when customers buy it.

So MS is unable to purchase a real X Box to try this with before releasing it?   Unreal....

[Torsen 495]

14 hours ago, ailchim said:

The DC6 is a very niche product : neither GA nor current airliner.  PMDG have a habit of doing these (see also the JS41 Jetstream) and I presume it was a toe in the water for them in a new and still developing simulator.  It sold in big numbers in MSFS because MSFS is so far lacking quality aircraft, certainly for big-hitters like PMDG.

That isn't the case in P3D where PMDG offer their core products, the 737, 777 and 747 and there are offerings of similar quality from other developers.  Why would the DC6 sell in big numbers there?  Why would PMDG risk the reputation of their core products in MSFS until the simulator has settled down?  No doubt that time will come but it hasn't yet.

 

10 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I'm in this group.  I purchased the B737 from PMDG for FSX, but never considered the DC-6.  I purchased the DC-6 for MSFS because it was the first product for the new platform from PMDG and the first true study level product.

Releasing the DC-6 first may have been marketing genius!

DC6 is not really a niche product imho but its the perfect start to get into the new world without having to fight with the the FMS front. Lets be honest, the DC6 is much more complex in regards of engine and systems modelling than a 737... but the latter having a FMS and thats where the problems start and getting complex on another front. The FMS part and all what comes with it like entering and following a flightplan in a proper way, AP, vnav etc is a completely other complexity topic and needing much more time. (See fbw, wt etc...). So me think the marketing aspect and earning money is just a simple (but prob welcome for sure) side effect of a quite basic technical and understandable project management decision.

And me def the other group. I bought the DC6 in fsx and p3d and now in MSFS because its not such a mainstream tubeliner magenta line rider. Even having the pmdg 737 back in fsx I never did more than a handful flights with it and would have passed it if it would have been the first pmdg prduct for msfs. Cause I simply find it not that interesting/rewarding. And I know quite a bunch of people thinking the same way. On the other hand I have to admit I'm still on the Queen in p3d and thats one of the few reasons to start p3d atm (beside the maddog and the dash). So I'm not damming tubeliners by default. I even have a lot of fun with the fbw bus atm...

In the end its the nice thing of flight simming that we all get something to fly... sooner or later... 😉

Cheers

T.

[ailchim 206]

I'm not saying it's a bad product, just that most simmers either want either quality GA or quality current airliners...  of which there are few in MSFS..  

 

 

[CJ1045 469]

3 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

So MS is unable to purchase a real X Box to try this with before releasing it?   Unreal....

What PMDG and MS has found, in this case, is that the XBOX dev kits that are suppose to be the same as the XBOX itself for testing  are not performing the same way. When PMDG tested on the dev kit it worked fine. This situation, the difference, is very unusual in console development.

CJ

[Bobsk8 12,678]

5 minutes ago, CJ1045 said:

What PMDG and MS has found, in this case, is that the XBOX dev kits that are suppose to be the same as the XBOX itself for testing  are not performing the same way. When PMDG tested on the dev kit it worked fine. This situation, the difference, is very unusual in console development.

CJ

Well then I guess either PMDG or MS are going to most likely have to start  a Go Fund Me, to raise enough  cash  to buy a real X Box, so they can test any new product before releasing it for X box customers. 😉

[keithb77 308]

Quote

most simmers either want either quality GA or quality current airliners

Just curious how you know this 🙂

[virtuali 4,421]

7 hours ago, Matchstick said:

Developers are given a software emulator of an X-Box

There's no such thing, not at least for developers on the MS Marketplace, which don't need it, considering they are only making an add-on, not a complete game.

Those making a complete game, can use either the Dev mode, which is just enabling a normal Xbox to work like a debug console, so it's possible to send games you compiled to test so, there's no need for an emulator, when you can simply test on real hardware connected to a network.

This is the crucial point: in Dev mode, there's no access to the HDD partitions that contains retail games (MSFS, in this case) so it's impossible to "see" either the Community folder or the Official folder through the network, meaning there's no way to test on real hardware, you can only send and run a complete game you compiled.

 

Quote

it appears MS testing use that as well so the first time anything runs on a real XB is when customers buy it.

More likely, they might use the Xbox Dev kit, which are not like retail machines, they usually have extra RAM used to run the debugger and might have other differences due to the security model of the retail machines.

In brief, there's no way to be sure something will run on the retail Xbox, unless after it ended up on the Marketplace. The only thing developers have, is the assurance from Microsoft/Asobo that something that works on PC will work on Xbox too, but that assumes a perfect parity between the two versions and no compatibility bugs.

[virtuali 4,421]

28 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Well then I guess either PMDG or MS are going to most likely have to start  a Go Fund Me, to raise enough  cash  to buy a real X Box, so they can test any new product before releasing it for X box customers.

A real Xbox is completely useless for testing because, even in Dev Mode, there's no access to the retail game data partitions. I have a real Xbox AND I have Dev Mode enabled but, while I can easily compile something with VC++ and see it there, I can't access any folder in MSFS while the console is in Dev Mode, because this was made assuming the typical 3rd party Xbox developer is making a complete game, not an add-on for a retail game.

MSFS, as usual, is fairly unique and, as far as I know, is the one and only game on Xbox that has a way ( WASM ) to allow 3rd parties to run actual executable C++ code as an add-on so, either MSFS itself should be upgraded to allow local testing, or the whole Xbox dev mode system should be changed in some way, which I guess is very unlikely, because even a small bug could open a huge security hole in the system.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by virtuali

[Bobsk8 12,678]

7 minutes ago, virtuali said:

A real Xbox is completely useless for testing because, even in Dev Mode, there's no access to the retail game data partitions. I have a real Xbox AND I have Dev Mode enabled but, while I can easily compile something with VC++ and see it there, I can't access any folder in MSFS while the console is in Dev Mode, because this was made assuming the typical 3rd party Xbox developer is making a complete game, not an add-on for a retail game.

MSFS, as usual, is fairly unique and, as far as I know, is the one and only game on Xbox that has a way ( WASM ) to allow 3rd parties to run actual executable C++ code as an add-on so, either MSFS itself should be upgraded to allow local testing, or the whole Xbox dev mode system should be changed in some what, which I guess is very unlikely, because even a small bug could open a huge security hole in the system.

 

So if I understand what you are saying, once a program like the DC6 is ready to go on sale to X box owners, the only way to give it a final test to make sure it will work for the customer, is to just sell it to them and tell them to "try it, and see what happens".Which is what they did.  ... 

  My thinking would be to load the program up to an X box that I have in my lab, and try running the program , and if it doesn't work properly on my X box, not put it on sale until it is fixed. But we know that MS and Asobo, seems to have  a habit of using the end users as their beta testers. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Bobsk8

[virtuali 4,421]

19 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

So if I understand what you are saying, once a program like the DC6 is ready to go on sale to X box owners, the only way to give it a final test to make sure it will work for the customer, is to just sell it to them and tell them to "try it, and see what happens".Which is what they did.  ... 

Exactly, since we just learned that even Xbox used by testers are not behaving exactly the same. But yes, the first time I was able to see our own sceneries on my Xbox, was after they were released on the Marketplace, and it's exactly the same for each and every other developer out there.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by virtuali

[David Mills 4,753]

55 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Exactly, since we just learned that even Xbox used by testers are not behaving exactly the same. But yes, the first time I was able to see our own sceneries on my Xbox, was after they were released on the Marketplace, and it's exactly the same for each and every other developer out there.

 

You are obviously extraordinarily knowledgeable about this subject. And I have no doubt that your statements are absolutely true in every detail. This is certainly not your fault in any way. But the idea that a developer, in 2021, can't test his software beforehand on end-user hardware (that is widely available) is unfathomable to me. That's not fair to the developer and not fair to the customer. This reminds me of the original Hubble Space Telescope fiasco, where there was supposedly no way to test the final, assembled product before launch.

[Rogen 1,087]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:08 AM, David Mills said:

But the idea that a developer, in 2021, can't test his software beforehand on end-user hardware (that is widely available) is unfathomable to me.

Welcome to the world of Microsoft...

Where testing is performed by actual retail users.

Because it's cheaper than hiring actual testers.

And having testers only slows down a release.

Cheers

Edited December 18, 2021 by Rogen