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Advanced Checklist Operations

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Hi Gerald, All,

Regarding checklist options. As documents are not including all the advanced options and searching/finding on AVSIM is difficult, pls can you summarize these for me?

I have done my homework and found the //1 - //7 to determine who responds. <-- (documented in How to create custom checklist.rtf)

Also found the single underscore "_ set"  -> speak what you want --> "2992 set"

I think I have found that all text within () is omitted --> is that correct?

What about if you use double underscore or even tripple ( as found in TFDi_B717_Check.txt)?

We do not know what we do not know.. What other gold pieces you have to add to the list?

 

Looking forward to hear from you (all).

 

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18 hours ago, danbaz said:

Hi Gerald, All,

Regarding checklist options. As documents are not including all the advanced options and searching/finding on AVSIM is difficult, pls can you summarize these for me?

I have done my homework and found the //1 - //7 to determine who responds. <-- (documented in How to create custom checklist.rtf)

Also found the single underscore "_ set"  -> speak what you want --> "2992 set"

I think I have found that all text within () is omitted --> is that correct?

What about if you use double underscore or even tripple ( as found in TFDi_B717_Check.txt)?

We do not know what we do not know.. What other gold pieces you have to add to the list?

 

Looking forward to hear from you (all).

 

Only use a single undescore in place of reply. It will catch everything you say. can add the odd words before or after the undescore

Avoid punctuation and other special characters.

MCE checklist parser tries to identify those shortened words like "ENG" and converts them to "engine" and eliminates characters that wouldn't be acceptable to the XML grammar it creates out of it. For instance, ">" and "<" cannot be used on a checklist line. There are others.

Avoid using two diffeent items on same checklist line as it would confuse the Fo as to what to check. Only do that for items where no check is required (with a typical "check" or "set" as the expected answer.

 

 

.

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Thank you Gerald,

Another thing that I have learned by crawling the forum is that with the "_ set" combined with the "//3" instruction, the FO will repeat the whole thing as if he was checking it himself. So if I say "three zero zero zero set", he will repeat "three zero zero zero set". Very cool!

Is there an option to run a checklist, but prevent that FO starts with saying e.g. "Glareshield checklist" and that he does not end the checklist with saying "Glareshield checklist completed"?

I triggered this checklist from a silent flow. Is there also an option that at the end of the checklist he continues where he was in that flow? I know that I could put a Pause=x statement in the flow, which would probably work, but better would be if he could go back to the flow at the end or if I could add a go to x flow statement (thus breaking the flow in multipe parts).

Basically what I am trying to do is to setup a whole procedure where flow items and unofficial checklist items follow one another in one big event. When watched on Youtube the viewer would not notice breaks between flow items and such checklist items, but see it as one big conversation where certain items are checked by both. I hope with this you know what I am trying to do.

Kind regards,

Daniel

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20 hours ago, danbaz said:

Thank you Gerald,

Another thing that I have learned by crawling the forum is that with the "_ set" combined with the "//3" instruction, the FO will repeat the whole thing as if he was checking it himself. So if I say "three zero zero zero set", he will repeat "three zero zero zero set". Very cool!

Is there an option to run a checklist, but prevent that FO starts with saying e.g. "Glareshield checklist" and that he does not end the checklist with saying "Glareshield checklist completed"?

I triggered this checklist from a silent flow. Is there also an option that at the end of the checklist he continues where he was in that flow? I know that I could put a Pause=x statement in the flow, which would probably work, but better would be if he could go back to the flow at the end or if I could add a go to x flow statement (thus breaking the flow in multipe parts).

Basically what I am trying to do is to setup a whole procedure where flow items and unofficial checklist items follow one another in one big event. When watched on Youtube the viewer would not notice breaks between flow items and such checklist items, but see it as one big conversation where certain items are checked by both. I hope with this you know what I am trying to do.

Kind regards,

Daniel

It's possible to trigger a checklist via the flow by adding the command that triggers a specific section, but that's better suited towards the end og the flow.

All checklist sections always end with "whatever_Checklist_section completed", as this is something everyone expects.

Not sure if you're aware as this is poorly documented, it's possible to suspend a flow for X seconds or until you ask Fo to resume it.

Use these

suspend the flow

pause the flow

resume the flow

carry on with the flow

... many other variations.

You can always check the status of a silent flow by asking...

are you done with the flow

have you finished the flow

have you completed the flow

did you finish your task

...etc...many other variations

 

Could also use the "Notify" sort of statements in the middle of the flow.

 

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On 12/26/2021 at 12:43 PM, FS++ said:

It's possible to trigger a checklist via the flow by adding the command that triggers a specific section, but that's better suited towards the end og the flow.

All checklist sections always end with "whatever_Checklist_section completed", as this is something everyone expects.

Not sure if you're aware as this is poorly documented, it's possible to suspend a flow for X seconds or until you ask Fo to resume it.

Use these

suspend the flow

pause the flow

resume the flow

carry on with the flow

... many other variations.

You can always check the status of a silent flow by asking...

are you done with the flow

have you finished the flow

have you completed the flow

did you finish your task

...etc...many other variations

 

Could also use the "Notify" sort of statements in the middle of the flow.

 

Interjecting here.

I am completely confused by your question.

(Adding I am Not employed by MCE Im just a fan and a old 707 type! Using MCE for 10 years+)

The "Checklist" is completely separate from the "FLOW"

A Flow is completed first, its a procedure. Its done first! Usually by rote memory or by a printed sheet, this is not a "checklist!"

After the flow is finished, the FO OR Captain initiates the checklist!

The PIC reads and FO complies, or the FO reads and the Capt complies. This depends upon company procedures.

I think people get Flows and Checklists mixed up.

This I blame on MSFS....They generally mix up flows and checklists.

This is mainly because they either have never flown a procedural aircraft, or they simply are too young to undersatnd?

A Flow is not a Checklist. They are separate and distict.

The sheer power of MCE comes into life in the checklist, since if a switch is set wrong, officer checking will KNOW this and correct the oficer reading it out!

MCE can then correct the error....!

This is where MCE is all powerful.

The program "knows" where the darned switches are set!

 

Best regards

And a happy new year!

David

A Checklist is intended to verify that the FLOW has been completed correctly!

 


 

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Hi David,

Always welcome to join in with your views and experience!

The biggest I have flown is a Metroliner - 20 years ago. Not in aviation anymore, but an enthusiast.

What I am trying to do is to get as close as possible to real world operations. Flows and Checklists are the cornerstone of what happens in the cockpit, but there is also dialogue with variables spoken back by the FO.

In my studying of the A320 flows I have seen that a big part of the cokcpit preparation scan the PF does is done when both pilots are seated, they then do the glareshield scan together and set it up, so later when doing the checklist they can confirm 'completed'. This is not silent, they talk to each other (I assume, so correct me if this is wrong). This part is not what MCE is designed for, but when able I would like to include a lot of it if possible. One way to be able to do this is to  be able to add some challenge response type of dialogue in a voxscript and the PF should be the one that speaks the challenges.

To program this you could add - above requested - options that can be set per checklist (like we have for voxscript) or add some functionality in voxscript itself. We have Notify/Pause/Sound commands, so a challenge/respond command should perhaps be doable too. (?)

Just thinking out loud here! Example for when they discuss the altimeter setting, the voxscript item could be:

[PF]=_ setting left -- _ setting right

[PF]= indicates challenge response type where PF speaks the challenge

_ setting left --> per regular checklist functionality

_ setting right --> per regular checklist functionality, but FO will speak "right"

This means the voxscript is halted until the PF has spoken "setting left"

The next item in the flow could be the voxkey item where FO presses B to set his altimeter (I know currently both alitimeters are linked, but asume at some point this will be fixed)

I hope the above makes a bit more clear what I am looking for. 🙂

Kind regards,

Daniel

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13 hours ago, danbaz said:

Hi David,

Always welcome to join in with your views and experience!

The biggest I have flown is a Metroliner - 20 years ago. Not in aviation anymore, but an enthusiast.

What I am trying to do is to get as close as possible to real world operations. Flows and Checklists are the cornerstone of what happens in the cockpit, but there is also dialogue with variables spoken back by the FO.

In my studying of the A320 flows I have seen that a big part of the cokcpit preparation scan the PF does is done when both pilots are seated, they then do the glareshield scan together and set it up, so later when doing the checklist they can confirm 'completed'. This is not silent, they talk to each other (I assume, so correct me if this is wrong). This part is not what MCE is designed for, but when able I would like to include a lot of it if possible. One way to be able to do this is to  be able to add some challenge response type of dialogue in a voxscript and the PF should be the one that speaks the challenges.

To program this you could add - above requested - options that can be set per checklist (like we have for voxscript) or add some functionality in voxscript itself. We have Notify/Pause/Sound commands, so a challenge/respond command should perhaps be doable too. (?)

Just thinking out loud here! Example for when they discuss the altimeter setting, the voxscript item could be:

[PF]=_ setting left -- _ setting right

[PF]= indicates challenge response type where PF speaks the challenge

_ setting left --> per regular checklist functionality

_ setting right --> per regular checklist functionality, but FO will speak "right"

This means the voxscript is halted until the PF has spoken "setting left"

The next item in the flow could be the voxkey item where FO presses B to set his altimeter (I know currently both alitimeters are linked, but asume at some point this will be fixed)

I hope the above makes a bit more clear what I am looking for. 🙂

Kind regards,

Daniel

Hi Daniel.

Yes I get what your trying to do.

Its more like a mini progrem here...MCE needing to read simulation parameters and run a flow. They did this in the triple crewed 707 and MD11. The FE/PFand FE all interacted...Eack knew the parameter of the other..(BLOODY CLEVER) (Which it can do)

IF...ELSE..OR...AND...GOTO...? Seen this before?

So, lets establish, basics here.

 Vox Script will run the FLOW, set the aircraft up.

Vox Script will complete it and amend any parameter thats astray!

The checklist will read the parameters set in the flow (which is procedurally correct) and reset parameters to the correct setting. Checklist will tell you if its wrong...(provided MCE has interrogated the simulation and grabbed all the parameteres from the sim)...?

I think what you are after, is a verbal response from PILOT CHECKING that the parameter is correct?

This is a company procedure!

Now this requires that YOU or MCE have set Altimeters correctly...?

So you say, "Set Altimeters to 1024"

ie, pilot sat with the checklist on a paper memo or a "EFB", says,  "Set  Altimeter at 1024". Pilot responding with a setting says "CORRECT". OR " SET AT 1024". OR CONCUR MY SIDE". MCE will already do this by way of a confirmation verbal reponse. 

This is entirely dependant upon airline protocol. Some dont do this. Some require a verbal " SET CORRECT". "SET AT 5000 FEET" , OR "Set on my side". MCE should concur with "Set", which is sufficient.

PROVIDED that MCE can and is actually reading the flight sim parameters. In our example, altimeter setting...but may be any other FMC/PFD/MFD/flight control parameter (GOD WILLING), in future.

I understand, from some use, that in FSX and P3d MCE reads the simulations parameters, perfectly. Especially in FSX/P3d PMDG...and many others.

Insofar as MSFS is concerned...I am very wary and uncertain.

I dont think everything can be read by MCE from MSFS.

Lets face it, they (ASOBO) completely messed up PMDG DC6 in XBox, (No mouse clicks) to the point that ASOBO had to withdraw the sim from the , marketplace....(Glad Im not Robert deciding if the 737 will work in the darned thing?)

Not that I am ASOBO bashing here, just be aware they dont know as much as Lockheed Martin!!!!

They are insufficient for a multi million dollar company....My opinion of course.  

ASOBO have gone out on a limb! Way above maximum altitude, at the moment. With each update comes several bug fixes!

If I  am wrong here or if the experts at MCE can add anything ...OK

Enjoy MCE...Its as good as it gets!

Cheers..

David

BTW Who wouldnt want to see a replication of my sig clip ion MSFS? I Include it here as a "EXAMPLE" of what Asobo need to aspire to! In my opinion of course!

Well, they are a multi million dollar franchise...so lets see the goods!

Edited by charlie130
clarity

 

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Thanks for your comments David,

20 hours ago, charlie130 said:

IF...ELSE..OR...AND...GOTO...? Seen this before?

I have as I have done a tiny bit of programming (VBA). Just enough to be dangerous probably!

My goal is to capture bits and pieces of the dialogue that would happen between a Cap and his FO, outside of the checklists. I used the altimeter, but perhaps better would have used the constraints setting as it is not directly part of a checklist.

20 hours ago, charlie130 said:

verbal response from PILOT CHECKING that the parameter is correct?

No, as that would be proper check list handling. I am trying to capture the cockpit preparation phase which in A320 they aparently do together for the most part (except overhead and MCDU). We can program a lot of dialogue with many little vox scripts, but that gets tedious and he cannot speak variables as he does not know them, hence the ask for some challenge/response functionality, but outside running the checklist. Inside vox script would be great. With the _ functionality I even would not have to remember an exact phrase

20 hours ago, charlie130 said:

I dont think everything can be read by MCE from MSFS.

Gerald would have to tell us. I believe a whole lot of the FBW can be read. They probably do break some stuff sometimes too.

What I am asking for is perhaps MCE 2.0 🙂

I agree, when everything is working, MCE is the best you can get now except from having somebody sitting next to you.

Regards,

Daniel

 

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15 hours ago, danbaz said:

Gerald would have to tell us. I believe a whole lot of the FBW can be read. They probably do break some stuff sometimes too.

What I am asking for is perhaps MCE 2.0 🙂

I agree, when everything is working, MCE is the best you can get now except from having somebody sitting next to you.

Regards,

Daniel

 

What kind of information are you looking for?

Did you know that all your crew can undesrtand,Dutch, German, French, Spanish, local slang and ANY other language? Not kidding.🙂

 

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Regarding this challenge/response request I will write up the exact wording I would like and will get back with specifics asks.

Regarding my other requests in the other thread, pls can you fix the broken links, e.g. yellow hydraulic pump etc.

Also in that thread were some requests regarding actions that FO should do stuff based on things he knows our can be told earlier. Would like to hear what is possible.

Lastly and unrelated to anything asked so far, I am very curious to hear what the roadmap is for MCE for 2022. Any development plans? 😊

Have a great day

Daniel

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5 hours ago, danbaz said:

Regarding this challenge/response request I will write up the exact wording I would like and will get back with specifics asks.

Regarding my other requests in the other thread, pls can you fix the broken links, e.g. yellow hydraulic pump etc.

Also in that thread were some requests regarding actions that FO should do stuff based on things he knows our can be told earlier. Would like to hear what is possible.

Lastly and unrelated to anything asked so far, I am very curious to hear what the roadmap is for MCE for 2022. Any development plans? 😊

Have a great day

Daniel

There will be an update to the MSFS interfacing sometime next week, to catchup with latest changes to various supported planes (yellow hydraulic pump).

The roadmap is the same as the one we set out more than a decade ago, and on which we delivered.

With MSFS, it's just the beginning.

We already support FlyBywire mod, CJ4, mod, Aerosoft CRJ, CS 777, CS 767 (coming next), Headwind A330, and All Asobo planes 

Support will be added to other planes worth interfacing over time and coming as free updates.

Now, free updates doen't mean little or no work, nor is it a generic solution.

Every interfaced plane could have made it as a separate product, since integration is superior to anything out there.

For instance, with FsLabs A3X series, our co-pilot will handle FCU dialling for you. Nothing on the market can do that.

it's just that we tend to think more of MCE as a concept (give you the best tool to make you a better multi-crew pilot), rather than "a product" with "how much do we need to make on this one sort of thinking. We could have inundated the market with no less that 50 separate products. We chose not to.

One single product to support all Microsoft Flight Simulators and as many complex airplanes as humanely possible.

And this is why MCE Ultimate Edition is never discounted.

We're also present in X-Plane world, again with a separate simgle product that covers XP-11 & XP-10 with view to supporting XP-11 later on. So far, 24 complex planes supported on that platform.

<QUOTE>

Also in that thread were some requests regarding actions that FO should do stuff based on things he knows our can be told earlier. Would like to hear what is possible. </QUOTE>

You need to be more specific with this.

 

Edited by FS++

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On 12/30/2021 at 7:06 PM, danbaz said:

Thanks for your comments David,

I have as I have done a tiny bit of programming (VBA). Just enough to be dangerous probably!

My goal is to capture bits and pieces of the dialogue that would happen between a Cap and his FO, outside of the checklists. I used the altimeter, but perhaps better would have used the constraints setting as it is not directly part of a checklist.

No, as that would be proper check list handling. I am trying to capture the cockpit preparation phase which in A320 they aparently do together for the most part (except overhead and MCDU). We can program a lot of dialogue with many little vox scripts, but that gets tedious and he cannot speak variables as he does not know them, hence the ask for some challenge/response functionality, but outside running the checklist. Inside vox script would be great. With the _ functionality I even would not have to remember an exact phrase

Gerald would have to tell us. I believe a whole lot of the FBW can be read. They probably do break some stuff sometimes too.

What I am asking for is perhaps MCE 2.0 🙂

I agree, when everything is working, MCE is the best you can get now except from having somebody sitting next to you.

Regards,

Daniel

 

Hi Daniel.

Well your last statement, I concur with, a hundred percent!

The feeling I always had with MCE, (from many years ago) is exactly that. I have a First officer sitting on my right hand side. (Oh and a third officer behind on my right! Eh??? Whats a Third officer the youngsters are asking?LOL) Look up my early videos when we had the glorious 727/707/MD11. If anyone wonders how powerful MCE is...look at a THIRD OFFICER running all the engines!

Its totally rewarding to form your own Vox Scripts and Checklists (yourself) and run them in an advanced simulation. (Not thats totally necessary, you can copy and paste ready made ones) Knowing the flows and corresponding checkilists are accurate and will be actioned 100% in the flight deck. (If not ...you are not going anywhere in an advanced simulation and its your fault because you forgot a flow!..eg air off before start in the Dash 8!)

Myself, I sorely miss a PMDG level of 737 (yes I Love the 737!)

I understand what you are seeking.

Now, regarding constraints? If you take a peek at Pilot2ATC program, multi program aware... (works in MSFS provided you run FSUIPC7...Freeware), you indeed can get constraints defined, in the verbal feed back from ATC to simulation. The constraints can be fed from SimBrief or included in the P2ATC flight plan yourself, both take off , approach and arrival. If you are using RW approach plates, you can add all the constraints yourself, from inside the P2ATC program...its very easy! You will get verbal confirmation and its enough for me.

For MCE to read Pilot2ATC actual program specific numbers would require our Magick Magician, Ben, to see if its possible? But MCE is looking at the sim and I dont know if it can look ate P2ATC as a separate program.?

Perhaps you require this additional program to complete your simulator experience?

Believe me, since I used Pilot2ATC and MCE together, I wouldnt use a "Live" ATC as Vatsim etc... P2ATC has it all and is FAR MORE ATTENTIVE!.

I can request everything I would in the air with ATC....Altitude constrants confirmation, Alt deviation, due to weather, course deviation...due to weather. P2ATC will decline, or accept your request, or delay for xxx minutes and give you a reason.

Honestly, its like talking to the RW ATC..Friendly and there to help you as the PIC. This completes my simulator pilots experience ...MCE and P2ATC.

If you want additional verbal input, you could always use Voiceattack and program extra voice resonses?

I used Voiceattack to replay an entire set of briefings for a video.

I recorded , Take off Brief, Cruise Brief, Descent Brief, Landing Brief. All these , of course, are trigered by a voice command, and are a Disc Jockey, fake reply to a command from me! Fake as it comes! But if you want more talk tak then its freeware! LOL

 

Have a good new year and lets hope for accuracy in any future ASOBO aircraft. They have nailed the scenery, now nail the aircraft accuracy of sim! Otherwise, its back to P3d!

 

Cheers

David

 


 

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Hi Gerald and David,

Gerald,

Thanks for the updates. I hope you did not mind my question regarding the roadmap. I think MCE is a great program already, which is why I am spending time on it and am talking to you. Yes, I do also feel that there is room for improvement, besides supporting more planes, but of course it is fully up to you if that is what you want to do. By the way I would gladly renew my license at a certain price for MCE 2.0 if that would bring innovation to the table.

I will have less time now as the workling life begins again, but after the update, I will review and submit the remaining questions.

 

David,

MCE is very powerful indeed and I have flown the PMDG 737 too. Looking forward to have it in MSFS.

Regarding ATC, I have played a little with VOX ATC in past, but the fact that these progs do not also manage the AI planes is killing the immersion for me. I know MSFS is working on it (voice controlled I believe too) and hope it will be good (enough)..at some point. 

Such briefings are good as they happen in the real plane too. Good for the immersion!

Take care. Wish you both  all the best every day of the year.

Regards,

Daniel

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, danbaz said:

Hi Gerald and David,

Gerald,

Thanks for the updates. I hope you did not mind my question regarding the roadmap. I think MCE is a great program already, which is why I am spending time on it and am talking to you. Yes, I do also feel that there is room for improvement, besides supporting more planes, but of course it is fully up to you if that is what you want to do. By the way I would gladly renew my license at a certain price for MCE 2.0 if that would bring innovation to the table.

I will have less time now as the workling life begins again, but after the update, I will review and submit the remaining questions.

 

David,

MCE is very powerful indeed and I have flown the PMDG 737 too. Looking forward to have it in MSFS.

Regarding ATC, I have played a little with VOX ATC in past, but the fact that these progs do not also manage the AI planes is killing the immersion for me. I know MSFS is working on it (voice controlled I believe too) and hope it will be good (enough)..at some point. 

Such briefings are good as they happen in the real plane too. Good for the immersion!

Take care. Wish you both  all the best every day of the year.

Regards,

Daniel

Hi,

Well...(Oh my word, if and when PMDG release the 737 we are in for a treat! MCE will gobble every switch up! I guarantee...or I will be killed by Gerald!

P2ATC.. ( Oh god I sound like a word not allowed, sorry!!) Actually does manage ATC aircraft in all (all) the sims!

I mean ALL the sims including MSFS...(UNBELIEVEABLY) It does accomodate aircraft in the sim... I jumped for joy! (Well not actually) When I heard P2ATC announce " You have traffic at FL 070 at 10 miles at 020"!!!

I looked...I saw a traffic there! MSFS????

Well thats my experience for you!

Main things missing will be the effects from P3d, probably never? and GSX2. Reference my vid below? Although no ATC p2ATC..THE sim effects are what ASOBO NEED TO LOOK AT. BETWEEN COUNTING THEIR CASH!

These provided a real extra sim effect

 

Good luck and cheers!

 

Edited by charlie130
sad extra effects

 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, danbaz said:

Thanks for the updates. I hope you did not mind my question regarding the roadmap. I think MCE is a great program already, which is why I am spending time on it and am talking to you. Yes, I do also feel that there is room for improvement, besides supporting more planes, but of course it is fully up to you if that is what you want to do. By the way I would gladly renew my license at a certain price for MCE 2.0 if that would bring innovation to the table.

I will have less time now as the workling life begins again, but after the update, I will review and submit the remaining questions.

 

 

You'e welcome.

BTW, I just checked the latest Flybywire and they have added functional ADR, IR switches. These will be covered in next update. If anything else was missed, just let us know. That plane is changing every week and there is always room for something to be broken in the process. You cannot interface it without endless maintenance.🙂

Happy new year.

Edited by FS++

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