X-Plane 12 Early Alpha - Snow and Ice

[JGregory 76]

If you're going to edit your posts (not a good idea) to try to improve your stance then I may need to respond....

45 minutes ago, mSparks said:

2 hours ago, JGregory said:

there has to be something left in the processing for the aircraft to actually fly correctly,

Sounds like you are agreeing it wont, since I said IN THAT POST

No, I am not agreeing...typical of you to quote me out of context. What I wrote was a question as follows......

2 hours ago, JGregory said:

 I mean, come on Mark, there has to be something left in the processing for the aircraft to actually fly correctly, right?

That diversion aside, the primary focus of a flight simulator is "flight simulation", which is a priority over this....

21 hours ago, mSparks said:

1. Snow is a fully 3D change, particularly around roads streets and buildings, but even flat areas get significant drifting.

2. trees affect that change, e.g. much less snow under the trees than in open space.

3. the road colours change, from grey in summer to very yellow when surrounded by snow.

4. There is a marked difference in physics between a layer of ice and areas of deep snow, on ice you cant stop, in snow its almost impossible to go, compacted snow is not that different from normal conditions...

And that as my primary point

 

52 minutes ago, mSparks said:

also, what is this nonsense?

55 minutes ago, JGregory said:

and know how to walk to and from a helicopter in it 

Err, no, I had just landed. You have seen snow before right? know that you can see where people have been from the footsteps in it right?

I stand corrected... you were walking FROM a helicopter and not back to it...very impressive, you should be very proud.  Although, I'm not sure how this makes any difference to the title of this thread or my point.  As is your modus operandi, you seem to want to divert everyone's attention from the actual subject at hand when it isn't quite going your way or you've been called out.

 

20 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Meanwhile, 3 years ago while I was passing my PPL

Are you calling attention to the fact that you are a pilot or that you think Unigine is the answer to your snow issues with XP12 ?  Because, you could have posted the video's date (9/2019) and not mentioned you had just gotten your PPL as it was irrelevant.  The fact that Unigine had that capability back in 2019 is also irrelevant.

And, as you know, Ben and Sidney have discussed the comparisons to Unigine (and other rendering engines) and I don't need to re-explain that here.  You are very well aware of the differences and reasons for them.  

If your bottom line is that XP12s improved weather, including snow, etc., is not any better than XP11 your wrong.  If you expect it to be better than XP11, then you would be right.  If you think XP12 will include the things in your bullet points (1-4 above) or all of what Unigine is showing in that video, it won't, for reasons that are obvious to most and should be blatantly obvious to you especially considering your background. 

Again, stop arguing for the sake of arguing, or trying to save face.  XP12 will be what it is.... not MSFS, not P3D, not Unigine, not Unreal Engine, not ANY other rendering engine..... for GOOD reason(s). You may want these things now but it ain't gonna happen

As an alpha tester dev you should be reporting back what you think is a problem, not commenting in a public forum why it isn't good enough as an alpha release.... BECAUSE of that very reason ... it's an alpha release. At the very least wait until public beta or v1.0 before making public comments about video produced during an alpha or whining about snowflakes like a typical "snowflake"

[mSparks 2,086]

1 minute ago, JGregory said:

Are you calling attention to the fact that you are a pilot or that you think Unigine is the answer to your snow issues

Im calling attention to the fact that what you say I shouldnt have expected from xp12 because it cant be done has already been done for more than 3 years. 

Thats why it had nothing to do with the alpha.

the weather is the last part of that unigine video.

benches good in linux VR as well.

Ive had that up for 2 years

 

5 minutes ago, JGregory said:

If your bottom line is that XP12s improved weather, including snow, etc

not including snow. And no amount of making it personal or trying to distract from the fact the snow in the OP video is not good or realistic for anyone who has ever flown in snowy conditions is going to change that basic fact.

[JGregory 76]

5 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Im calling attention to the fact that what you say I shouldnt have expected from xp12 because it cant be done has already been done for more than 3 years. 

You shouldn't expect ANYTHING to be "done" yet, was the major point.  And what I said couldn't be done was things that other rendering engines are doing without the other requirements that XP12 has.  It's literarily not possible for you to not understand this.

or

8 minutes ago, mSparks said:

And no amount of making it personal or trying to distract from the fact the snow in the OP video is not good or realistic for anyone who has ever flown in snowy conditions is going to change that basic fact.

I didn't bring anything personal about me this into the conversation, but you certainly brought in many things about yourself.  I didn't say the video depiction of snow was good, bad, or indifferent.  I said it's an alpha and should not be commented on by an alpha dev tester knowing that it will probably be improved.  

I also said it should not be compared to Unigine or others, because there are GOOD reasons it is different, and you should know that also.  

What part of this are you not getting?

[mSparks 2,086]

2 minutes ago, JGregory said:

You shouldn't expect ANYTHING to be "done" yet

So why is commenting what I think should be done remotely controversial in a way that requires comparing me to greazer?

30 minutes ago, JGregory said:

not commenting in a public forum why it isn't good enough as an alpha release....

did you sign the NDA? we are not supposed to be talking about any of that at all.

We have a video, by Austin no less, in the OP, that shows 2D snow accumulation. 

We have 2D snow accumulation in XP11.

2D snow accumulation is not what defines flying in snowy conditions or makes it similar to the real world. Anyone who thinks it does is going to be as disappointed as I was when it snowed on my orthophoto a year or two ago.

Again, nothing to do with the alpha.

9 minutes ago, JGregory said:

And what I said couldn't be done was things that other rendering engines are doing without the other requirements that XP12 has.

It requires at a minimum mesh deformation, I can not comment on what LR have said or not said about if or when that will be incorporated into the sim, because NDA, and I wasnt.

13 minutes ago, JGregory said:

What part of this are you not getting?

Why you think the current alpha is remotely related to what defines snowy conditions escapes me completely.

 

[JGregory 76]

Delete

Edited February 12, 2022 by JGregory

[mSparks 2,086]

26 minutes ago, JGregory said:

 

Yeah, you know, this stuff:

"not impossible", do want, don't think we'll get. Long way to go before we do.

Edited February 12, 2022 by mSparks

[JGregory 76]

58 minutes ago, mSparks said:

So why is commenting what I think should be done remotely controversial in a way that requires comparing me to greazer?

Firstly, are you now admitting that what you think should be done is a comment on the video of the OP?

Secondly, you are a dev alpha tester, you shouldn't be making ANY comments here, they should all be made on the Slack dev channel and/or in bug /feature reports.

The comparison to Greazer is apropois because he has also made some suggestions (ie. rodents) that make no sense as it pertains to a flight simulator.  Snow is something for discussion on the dev channel, but the granularity and detail you think it should be taken to is akin to Greazer's rodents.  The suggestions you listed are not Germaine to flying the aircraft, which is the primary focus of a flight simulator, especially XP.

 

58 minutes ago, mSparks said:

did you sign the NDA?

I don't have to.

 

58 minutes ago, mSparks said:

We have a video, by Austin no less, in the OP, that shows 2D snow accumulation. 

We have 2D snow accumulation in XP11.

2D snow accumulation is not what defines flying in snowy conditions or makes it similar to the real world. Anyone who thinks it does is going to be as disappointed as I was when it snowed on my orthophoto a year or two ago.

Again, nothing to do with the alpha.

The video is from an alpha oof XP12 and you know it.

The fact that it "shows" 2D snow accumulation is irrelevant as the purpose of the video was to feature the new A333. Austin also made a point to mention that the weather/scenery was not complete, a wip, and more work is being done.

What was depicted in the video regarding snow is NOT what will be in the final version of XP12.  As an alpha tester you know this.

Therefore, making comments about what was in that video is inappropriate, especially for a dev alpha tester.

And, it is blatantly obvious your comments were about the alpha... the video in the OP was from an XP12 alpha and the very first response (by you) was directed at that video.

 

58 minutes ago, mSparks said:

It requires at a minimum mesh deformation, I can not comment on what LR have said or not said about if or when that will be incorporated into the sim, because NDA, and I wasnt.

Finally, some respect for being a dev alpha tester and the NDA!  My comment had nothing to do with mesh deformation, rather that those other engines don't deal with the same things that X-Pane has to.

 

58 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Why you think the current alpha is remotely related to what defines snowy conditions escapes me completely.

I never said that.  Not even sure what that means.... sounds like one of your typical diversionary tactics.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by JGregory

[mSparks 2,086]

2 minutes ago, JGregory said:

 The suggestions you listed are not Germaine to flying the aircraft, which is the primary focus of a flight simulator, especially XP.

What I listed is what separates my real world love of snow, and the complete and utter disappointment that was

 

5 minutes ago, JGregory said:

The fact that it "shows" 2D snow accumulation is irrelevant as the purées of the video was to feature the new A333. Austin also made a point to mention that the weather/scenery was not complete, a wip, and more work is being done.

And that has anything remotely to do with anything I said before you went off on one how exactly?

6 minutes ago, JGregory said:

 My comment had nothing to do with mesh deformation, rather that those other engines don't deal with the same things that X-Pane has to.

Yes it did, mesh deformation is what separates an engine having capability of:

23 hours ago, mSparks said:

1. Snow is a fully 3D change, particularly around roads streets and buildings, but even flat areas get significant drifting.

and not.

engines that have it can, engines that don't can't. Nothing to do with anything else they deal with or do differently.

9 minutes ago, JGregory said:

Therefore, making comments about what was in that video is inappropriate, especially for a dev alpha tester.

And, it is blatantly obvious your comments were about the alpha... the video in the OP was from an AP12 alpha and the very first response (by you) was directed at that video.

Quote me exactly which comments you think refer the the alpha, All I got is

23 hours ago, mSparks said:

Quite a long way to go to get close to realistic snow and ice visualisation.

which you actually seem to agree with, and anyone who has ever seen snow would look at:

and agree with

[JGregory 76]

4 minutes ago, mSparks said:

What I listed is what separates my real world love of snow, and the complete and utter disappointment that was

Which were listed coincidentally right after this comment and they are unrelated, really?.. NOT....

4 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Quite a long way to go to get close to realistic snow and ice visualisation.

Which was a reference to XP12 Alpha as in the OP video

 

7 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Yes it did, mesh deformation is what separates an engine having capability of:

My comment had nothing to do with mesh deformation and ...

7 minutes ago, mSparks said:

and not.

engines that have it can, engines that don't can't. Nothing to do with anything else they deal with or do differently.

it's not the ONLY difference, and the other differences have a major impact on whether you do or do not get to the level detail you listed.

 

11 minutes ago, mSparks said:

28 minutes ago, JGregory said:

Therefore, making comments about what was in that video is inappropriate, especially for a dev alpha tester.

And, it is blatantly obvious your comments were about the alpha... the video in the OP was from an AP12 alpha and the very first response (by you) was directed at that video.

Quote me exactly which comments you think refer the the alpha, All I got is

On 2/11/2022 at 12:43 AM, mSparks said:

Quite a long way to go to get close to realistic snow and ice visualisation.

That, and the list of 4 items below it, which are clearly part of the same thing.

 

13 minutes ago, mSparks said:

which you actually seem to agree with, and anyone who has ever seen snow would look at:

Nope, never said I agree or didn't agree. I said this is not the place for you (as a dev alpha tester) to be discussing it

 

 

As I stated earlier, you seem to thrive on twisting words and having an endless back-and-forth.  I've said all I can and made my point clearly and concisely.  If you can't see by now that you should not have responded to the OP video the way you did, there is nothing more I can say. We will see what others think. I'm done.

[mSparks 2,086]

10 minutes ago, JGregory said:

really?.. NOT...

Yes really.

The video is the first time I have seen snow in XP. the picture and notes were taken before I even had the alpha, I sent them to LR before I had the alpha.

10 minutes ago, JGregory said:

it's not the ONLY difference, and the other differences have a major impact on whether you do or do not get to the level detail you listed.

agreed, a long way to go. 

10 minutes ago, JGregory said:

4 items below it, which are clearly part of the same thing.

colouring doesn't require 3D, its just wrong.

10 minutes ago, JGregory said:

 I've said all I can and made my point clearly and concisely.

Still got no idea what point you think you have made. The NDA is quite clear that I am permitted to talk about things LR make public, I've signed enough of them over the years to know the difference, its the standard terms of the 15 others or so I'm under.

However, Confidential Information does not include:
(a) information generally available to the public;
(b) widely used programming practices or algorithms;
(c) information rightfully in the possession of the Parties prior to signing this Agreement;
 

Edited February 12, 2022 by mSparks

[Janov 2,383]

Jim, it is your turn to learn now. 🤣

The rest of us have already. Ask Goran for help if you need to - or me 😉

[Humpty 751]

2 hours ago, Janov said:

Jim, it is your turn to learn now. 🤣

The rest of us have already. Ask Goran for help if you need to - or me 😉

😁

[Janov 2,383]

4 minutes ago, rjetster said:

It doesn't matter if it's an A-L-P-H-A... it's X-plane which no longer looks relevant in this new world of MSFS. 

It is a good indication of the exact opposite if MSFS fans feel the need to come here and post stuff like you just did. 😘

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

I question why they show this preview in its current condition. It's obvious that a lot of things are missing. I saw a lot of xplane 11 style component still in the video. I get they want to get people excited on what they are working on but they are not helping themselves.  I am certain the final product will be better but as a xplane customer, I am looking at this pre-alpha xplane 12 footage and I am left with disappointment that they are not further along in the process. It seems like just an enhanced version of Xplane 11. It doesn't want me to go out and buy Xplane 12

[Janov 2,383]

45 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I am left with disappointment that they are not further along in the process.

I think your sentiment will be shared by many - I will (with rising desperation) say it again and again: XP12 will not equal or leapfrog MSFS in the visual department.

Another warning - don´t comfort yourself that this is "early alpha" and somehow the release will be looking a ton better.

If you are primarily into the visual aspect of flying aircraft - and I don´t mean this in a bad or derogatory way -  go fly MSFS. This will not change with XP12. Period.

There are about (going by metrics from Steam) 25% of users that still prefer the hopelessly dated XP11 over MSFS even these days! They will gladly take the visual enhancements that XP12 brings.