Why do they say "decimal"?

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

The US just likes to be different.

After all they still measure gasoline by the Old English "Queen Anne" gallon introduced by statute by Queen Anne in 1707 and long since replaced by the standard imperial gallon and the litre elsewhere in the world.

[icewater5 181]

3 hours ago, Chock said:

 Unless it's Air France, they just do what they want and ignore everyone's instructions anyway.

Thats funny. I recall when i was a child, in JFK control tower, the ATC controllers said the same thing😀

Like on the taxiways Air France jumped in front of the other planes (something like that anyway)

[ckyliu 1,749]

3 hours ago, Chock said:

To be fair, I actually do say 'clear' on the headset when advising airliner crews they are okay to crank their engines on a pushback, because most pilots are used to shouting 'clear' before cranking a propeller on the plane they first learned on so it tallies with that, so I don't think when I say 'you are clear to start engines one and two at your discretion' there can be much confusion as to what I mean, at least I've never found that to be the case, even with crews whose native language is not English. Unless it's Air France, they just do what they want and ignore everyone's instructions anyway.

I presume no one is monitoring the plugged-in headset apart from the flight deck so you can say what you want 🤣 The context of a plugged-in headset makes it less open to confusion, so I think you can get away with it anyway, but It might not even be proscribed for such use. I wonder if ground vehicle operators get cut more slack with comms on the radio?

If ATC here said "clear to start engines" they'd get chewed out by someone sooner or later, it's always "engine start approved" or "your discretion", and same with "pushback approved", never cleared. This was drilled into me, can you tell? 🤣 About the only thing that didn't get picked up on was "nine" instead of "niner". I'm really fun at parties too.

Edited February 21, 2022 by ckyliu

[2reds2whites 827]

6 hours ago, neil0311 said:

There’s nothing “lax” at all when dealing with ATC. And it may please you to know that “position and hold” which made complete sense and emphasized holding, has been replaced by the vague and confusing “line up and wait” which was a huge mistake IMHO. “Hold” is a command that pilots know. “Wait” isn’t a command pilots know or use. I wonder how many additional runway incursions have happened since that change about 10 years ago.

Some of the official international phraseology is probably due to English not being a native language for many pilots.

The phraseology of ATC in the US is very lax when compared to most of the world.

You can argue all you like that the controllers are equally as competent, which they surely are, but the phraseology is on-par for the least standard anywhere in the world. That's just how it is. The US is the best at many things - but standardised ATC phraseology ain't it.

'Line up and wait' is incredibly common all over the world, and is the de-facto line-up only instruction pretty much anywhere.

I have no idea how you could possibly think that 'line up and wait' is vague and confusing, whilst 'position and hold' isn't. Line up and wait is an independent and direct instruction. There can be no ambiguity, as there is no other clearance in which you are either instructed to 'line up' or 'wait.' 'Position and hold' contains two words which have different independant meanings - the great irony being that 'hold short' is the instruction for NOT entering a runway. The clearance contains a word which if misinterpreted leads to lining up on a runway you have been told to hold short of, or holding short of a runway you should be lining up on!

The FAA knew all this of course when they reviewed runway incursion events and sensibly changed the rule.

[neil0311 366]

4 hours ago, 2reds2whites said:

I have no idea how you could possibly think that 'line up and wait' is vague and confusing, whilst 'position and hold' isn't. Line up and wait is an independent and direct instruction. There can be no ambiguity, as there is no other clearance in which you are either instructed to 'line up' or 'wait.' 'Position and hold' contains two words which have different independant meanings - the great irony being that 'hold short' is the instruction for NOT entering a runway. The clearance contains a word which if misinterpreted leads to lining up on a runway you have been told to hold short of, or holding short of a runway you should be lining up on!

Seems to me this was a solution looking for a problem. But be that as it may, and obviously you disagree, your comment that “position and hold” isn’t crystal clear yet “lineup and wait” is…is bonkers.

I’m just an instrument rated private pilot, but I bet if you ask 100 American commercial ATPs, at least 101 would agree with me.

Edited February 22, 2022 by neil0311

[neil0311 366]

9 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

... That said, standardization is important (referring to the "pos and hold" vs "line up and wait" discussion.)  We're very bad at ICAO standard phraseology in the US, and that was one example of a few where we have (correctly) changed to align ourselves better with ICAO.  There's no downside, other than the natural human resistance to change, which is never a valid argument against it. 

Well, standardization is important, but just because “everyone else does it” doesn’t make it better or the correct way. Perhaps the rest of the world should “position and hold” like the US used to do.

And personally, any time I perceive safety could be impacted, it concerns me.  But I guess I’m tilting at windmills.

[icewater5 181]

I think it was a problem looking for a solution. "Line up and wait" is about as clear as you can get to my ears .

[Lord Farringdon 477]

9 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

Seems to me this was a solution looking for a problem. But be that as it may, and obviously you disagree, your comment that “position and hold” isn’t crystal clear yet “lineup and wait” is…is bonkers.

I’m just an instrument rated private pilot, but I bet if you ask 100 American commercial ATPs, at least 101 would agree with me.

Haven't you just weakened your argument with that statement ie  100 American Commercial ATP's. Considering the rest of the world also has flights into the US and "position and hold" might not be crystal clear to everyone and safety in the air demands communications be crystal to everyone?  

 

 

[icewater5 181]

24 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

 but I bet if you ask 100 American commercial ATPs, at least 101 would agree with me.

How does that work😊

[Lord Farringdon 477]

28 minutes ago, icewater5 said:

I think it was a problem looking for a solution. "Line up and wait" is about as clear as you can get to my ears .

Indeed. You can only line up in one place. You can position and hold or even hold position in many places including but not exclusively the runway. I wonder how much phraseology standardization was generated by the Tenerife disaster? I have included a grab from the wiki on the subject. While 'clear' has been in discussion in this thread, it is "takeoff" which is the banned word, only to be used in association with clear or not cleared to do so. With "hold position" an important adjunct to ATC instructions to an aircraft already lined up. 

 

Air traffic instruction must not be acknowledged solely with a colloquial phrase such as "OK" or even "Roger" (which simply means the last transmission was received),^[66] but with a readback of the key parts of the instruction, to show mutual understanding. The word "takeoff" is now spoken only when the actual takeoff clearance is given, or when canceling that same clearance (i.e. "cleared for takeoff" or "cancel takeoff clearance"). Up until that point, aircrew and controllers should use the word "departure" in its place (e.g. "ready for departure"). Additionally, an ATC clearance given to an aircraft already lined-up on the runway must be prefixed with the instruction "hold position".^[67] 

Wiki Article

So I guess, "line up and wait"  or even "line up and hold" might be sensible because there is little doubt about where that is happening but position and hold seems open to misinterpretation in some cases.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Lord Farringdon

[neil0311 366]

4 minutes ago, Lord Farringdon said:

Indeed. You can only line up in one place. You can position and hold or even hold position in many places including but not exclusively the runway. I wonder how much phraseology standardization was generated by the Tenerife disaster? I have included a grab from the wiki on the subject. While 'clear' has been in discussion in this thread, it is "takeoff" which is the banned word, only to be used in association with clear or not cleared to do so. With "hold position" an important adjunct to ATC instructions to an aircraft already lined up. 

 

Air traffic instruction must not be acknowledged solely with a colloquial phrase such as "OK" or even "Roger" (which simply means the last transmission was received),^[66] but with a readback of the key parts of the instruction, to show mutual understanding. The word "takeoff" is now spoken only when the actual takeoff clearance is given, or when canceling that same clearance (i.e. "cleared for takeoff" or "cancel takeoff clearance"). Up until that point, aircrew and controllers should use the word "departure" in its place (e.g. "ready for departure"). Additionally, an ATC clearance given to an aircraft already lined-up on the runway must be prefixed with the instruction "hold position".^[67] 

Wiki Article

Line up? That’s implies being in a line of aircraft, not positioning on the runway or anywhere else.

Wait? Wait for what? Hold is an affirmative command.

I will never agree that “lineup and wait” is more clear or a better command than “position and hold” when we’re discussing someone who is holding short at the runway or has just checked in with the tower.

But I’m just a nobody, so doesn’t really matter. At least I do have 30 years of actually PIC experience in my logs.

[Lord Farringdon 477]

3 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

Line up? That’s implies being in a line of aircraft, not positioning on the runway or anywhere else.

Wait? Wait for what? Hold is an affirmative command.

I will never agree that “lineup and wait” is more clear or a better command than “position and hold” when we’re discussing someone who is holding short at the runway or has just checked in with the tower.

But I’m just a nobody, so doesn’t really matter. At least I do have 30 years of actually PIC experience in my logs.

I certainly wouldn't argue with your experience @neil0311 but how does that fit with a pilot of much limited experience, or experienced pilots with limited English or with the changes in phraseology terminology that have occurred as a result of recommendations from accident investigations? We, ie pilots and passengers are all in this together?

[neil0311 366]

6 minutes ago, Lord Farringdon said:

I certainly wouldn't argue with your experience @neil0311 but how does that fit with a pilot of much limited experience, or experienced pilots with limited English or with the changes in phraseology terminology that have occurred as a result of recommendations from accident investigations? We, ie pilots and passengers are all in this together?

I’m not against standards and change when needed. But it is a head scratcher when it seems to be arbitrary or not have a clear impact on safety…or worse…seems to jeopardize safety.

But maybe the stats showed otherwise. To get back to the original point of the thread…the word “point” is a single syllable and easier to say quickly, so why would anyone think that saying “decimal” is better? The answer is in local custom and colloquialism.

Why do the British add an “S” to to the end of the word math or call a car trunk a “boot” or any other number of figures of speech? Custom and colloquialism.

Edited February 22, 2022 by neil0311

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

4 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

Why do the British add an “S” to to the end of the word math or call a car trunk a “boot” or any other number of figures of speech? Custom and colloquialism.

The "S" is technically correct as it is short for mathematics.

As for boot -  this is the accepted etymolgy:

Quote

The word "boot"(which is commonly used by the English), goes back to 18th century horse-drawn carriages where the coachman sat on a chest, which was used to store, among other things, his boots. This storage space came to be termed as the "boot locker", which soon became the "boot".

 

[Lord Farringdon 477]

1 minute ago, neil0311 said:

I’m not against standards and change when needed. But it is a head scratcher when it seems to be arbitrary or not have a clear impact on safety…or worse…seems to jeopardize safety.

But maybe the stats showed otherwise. To get back to the original point of the thread…point is a single syllable and easier to say quickly, so why would anyone think that saying “decimal” is better? The answer is in local custom and colloquialism.

Why do the British add an “S” to to the end of the word math or call a car trunk a “boot” or any other number of figures of speech? Custom and colloquialism.

I agree. Something else which probably hasn't been mentioned when some have disparaged the American ATC communications is that having flown over Indonesia on many occasions and French territories a few times where I have heard pilots and ATC communicating in their local language with domestic aircraft!  So yeah, the point and decimal argument seems a little non-worrisome!