Yoke vs Joystick.. Left Hand vs right and dexterity.

[psolk 3,037]

With all the talk about FSL lately in P3D and both the FBW and upcoming Fenix in MSFS it got me to thinking why I've never mastered the modern airbus...  It's not the old if it ain't Boeing I'm not going adage, I love to fly on them as a passenger, the 340-500 and 600 are still some of my favorite planes and the 350 is incredibly aesthetically pleasing.  

So why don't I fly them in the sim? 

My biggest issue with the Airbus line in both the sim and real life is I am SUCH a righty...  I mean I try to brush my teeth with my left hand sometimes and I'm lucky to not stab myself in the throat!  I've got a pinched nerve that was just released with my cervical fusion so sadly my right arm isn't that nimble right now and the more I try to do with my left the more I understand why I don't try more often LOL. 

I don't know why I seem to be able to hold a yoke in my left hand only or obviously a steering wheel with just my left hand but a Joystick handle with my left hand alone is like watching a 3 year old trying to draw between the lines...  It's not pretty.  I have the Thrustmaster HOTAS system so it's not like I don't have a good stick. I use it with the 145 in MSFS but the collective is in my left and the cyclic in my right.  Same with most singe seater joystick controlled airplanes especially fighters..  Throttle in the left hand control with the right.  

I don't know if it's a mental block or truly lack of coordination but I admire all of those pilots who left seat in the airbus but are natural right handers.  I would imagine it takes a lot of work to get the hand/eye coordination in your off hand.  

I'm also so OCD I wont use my yoke with an airbus, that's sacrilege so I really need to spend more time working on it or just stick to aircraft with yokes...  

Just one of those intangibles that has shaped my choice of aircraft I fly... 

Anyone else in the same boat or am I just a nutter?  Ok, I am a nutter regardless but curious if others have this too and even if this carries over to the real world as professional pilots approach their career and type ratings.   

Secondary to this is me getting a better understanding of the airbus flight logic in general.  Obviously in a Boeing the controls are synced and if the left seat pushes the yoke forward it moves in the right seat as well and you have to hold the yoke in the position you want it.  To return from left to neutral does not require a counter input to the right beyond neutral.  .  I understand this lack of linked controls was one of the factors in the Air France crash but does the control logic work the same as well?  If a 320 is banked right does the pilot flying have to hold the joystick to the right or do they move it to desired bank and then release it to neutral then bank left with a left hand motion of the stick?   

I'm not trying to compare in a one is better than the other but learn and understand the differences better...  

Appreciate the input.  The crosswind thread has been really useful for me and this is another flight related discussion not specific to any sim... 

[Luis Hernandez 564]

I switched from a right-hand joystick (in my X-52) to a left-hand one (my Gladiator NXT). It took me a little adjusting, but I no longer think about that. Something that helped me a lot is remembering that I already do so with my car (mine is LHD, as in almost all the Americas). And well, being a guitarrist helps a lot: all the precision work is done with the left hand hehehe...

There was an Aer Lingus pilot here that used to talk about how did he adjust so easily to the sidestick (it was Rónán or something like that?). This was in one of the replies to an article/thread he opened describing a trip to Orlando (IIRC). If you can, look for some of his postings here. That may help you better.

6 hours ago, psolk said:

If a 320 is banked right does the pilot flying have to hold the joystick to the right or do they move it to desired bank and then release it to neutral then bank left with a left hand motion of the stick? 

Up to 33º of bank, they do not have to hold the sidestick at all. Just release it to neutral and that's all. For banking now left, move the stick left until you reach your desired bank angle, then release it to neutral. No holding required. The 777 and 787 have the same behavior in bank (but I don't remember the limits there).

Over 33º of bank, if stick is released, plane goes back to 33º. If you want to keep the over-33º bank, you do need to hold the stick (apart from airshows, why would you want to do so?). All of this is asuming Normal Law.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Luis Hernandez

[psolk 3,037]

51 minutes ago, Luis Hernandez said:

I switched from a right-hand joystick (in my X-52) to a left-hand one (my Gladiator NXT). It took me a little adjusting, but I no longer think about that. Something that helped me a lot is remembering that I already do so with my car (mine is LHD, as in almost all the Americas). And well, being a guitarrist helps a lot: all the precision work is done with the left hand hehehe...

There was an Aer Lingus pilot here that used to talk about how did he adjust so easily to the sidestick (it was Rónán or something like that?). This was in one of the replies to an article/thread he opened describing a trip to Orlando (IIRC). If you can, look for some of his postings here. That may help you better.

Up to 33º of bank, they do not have to hold the sidestick at all. Just release it to neutral and that's all. For banking now left, move the stick left until you reach your desired bank angle, then release it to neutral. No holding required. The 777 and 787 have the same behavior in bank (but I don't remember the limits there).

Over 33º of bank, if stick is released, plane goes back to 33º. If you want to keep the over-33º bank, you do need to hold the stick (apart from airshows, why would you want to do so?). All of this is asuming Normal Law.

Great information thank you so much for sharing!!  I also never knew the 777/787 had the same behavior!  I thought all Boeing were the old hold the yoke to the bank angle!  I guess I don't need to sit there holding it the whole time throughout the turn as I have "always" done in the 777/787.  Holy cow I've been flying them wrong the whole time!   

Does the 737-Max have the old or new bank behavior?  

Wow, thank you!!! 

[lzamm 143]

15 hours ago, psolk said:

....but a Joystick handle with my left hand alone is like....

If you're only using the stick for the Airbus it may be your trying to fly it like a 737, rather than any particular ham-handedness, that is causing your problems.  As opposed to a yoke, you generally need only small movements followed by a return to the neutral position (even in pitch).

 

15 hours ago, psolk said:

....was one of the factors in the Air France crash....

Also not wanting to start a war but there are plenty of instances where the PNF did nothing despite having the yoke in his or her stomach 🙂

 

7 hours ago, psolk said:

Does the 737-Max have the old or new bank behavior?  

737 max does not have FBW - for most of the  time, at least.

[Christopher Low 5,325]

I use my right hand with my CH Flightstick Pro joystick for P3D, so I was a bit apprehensive at the thought of having to use my left hand to control the Airbus A320 in that full motion hydraulic simulator in Manchester last year. However, the smoothness and sensitivity of that Airbus side stick was so good that I did not have too much difficulty controlling the aircraft's movements with my left hand. It felt a lot easier than I was expecting it to be.

[martin-w 3,234]

23 hours ago, psolk said:

My biggest issue with the Airbus line in both the sim and real life is I am SUCH a righty...  I mean I try to brush my teeth with my left hand sometimes and I'm lucky to not stab myself in the throat!  I've got a pinched nerve that was just released with my cervical fusion so sadly my right arm isn't that nimble right now and the more I try to do with my left the more I understand why I don't try more often LOL. 

 

You know what, I'm the same. If I were a real world Airbus pilot I'd have quite a lot of trouble adapting to the stick in my left hand.

In fact, one night while lying in bed, this very issue was occupying my thoughts. With my famous utterly extreme creativity I solved the problem...

I invented a system whereby the pilot could detach the thrust levers and joystick and swap them over. Okay, this would mean two sets of thrust levers rather than one, but its  small price to pay for accommodating the 90 percent of human beings that are right handed. 

 

[jon b 2,041]

15 hours ago, psolk said:

I guess I don't need to sit there holding it the whole time throughout the turn as I have "always" done in the 777/787.

The 787 can have a strange rapid oscillation on approach known as a body structural mode, which apparently is an oscillation present in all long airliners but is exaggerated by the carbon fibre construction of the 787.

The FBW tries to counter these aircraft body oscillations which feel like the aircraft is in chop, but when hand flying on approach if the pilot is holding the yoke tightly these oscillations get fed back into the control system and thus  increased,  through the pilots actual grip on the yoke.

I was aware of the strange chop that came out of nowhere when I started flying the 787 and took the autopilot out, but didn’t know what it was, I thought it was just the FBW fighting to keep the aircraft from being dislodged from its trajectory by wind gusts.

I then stumbled across a description of this phenomenon, which no one mentioned during training, I’m even not sure it’s widely known about.

Then while bouncing about on an approach in a scene reminiscent of the Star Wars attack on the Death Star and a voice in my head saying “ use the force Luke, let go” I relaxed my grip on the yoke and was amazed to find the chop completely vanish !