5 hours ago, Nocturnal said:

The good thing about this simulator is that even if there is a version upgrade, we are not forced to update it. 😉

Over time you are more or less forced to. New versions/updates of Windows or your hardware may force you to install updates that may in turn require an update of the sim which may in turn require updates of the addons in case of compatibility issues and so on. And those addons may be old and no longer supported, be cuase the developer want you to run the recent versions. They sometimes even disable online activation services for those addons to force you to upgrade.

This is not appearent at first. Many people stayed with FSX because "it's good enough". Sooner or later they had to upgrade their old/broken hardware, which forced them to update the gpu driver, which caused CTDs and other issues in FSX, which was no longer maintained. Sooner or later that kind of chain of events will happen if you stay with the current version of everything. That's why it's good to think one step ahead instead of just thinking what you have is good enough.

More important though, if everyone thinks that everything is good enough, there is absolutely no incitament for the developer to move forward and fix bugs and create new features. If you really love P3D then the best thing you can do to keep it alive is to be an active community that really puts preassure on the developer to move forward and keep up with the competitors. Unfortunately the P3D community headed in the other direction, being very defensive when people pointed out bugs and constructive critisism and feature requests. This is why it's now heading in the same direction as FSX, because all that remains of the P3D community is the "it's good enough so I really don't care" people. A community that doesn't care is a dead community. A dead community is the end of a software. Banning poeple who point this out isn't going to help you either (I seem to be next in line for that).

Edited April 14, 20224 yr by Multisim

If it’s dead, why are you here?

14 minutes ago, newtie said:

If it’s dead, why are you here?

https://www.avsim.com/profile/496236-multisim/content/

😆

😂

Edit: A surprisingly (at least for me) high number of people still use FSX, by the way. By that definition, even FSX isn't dead.

Edited April 14, 20224 yr by d.tsakiris

2 hours ago, Multisim said:

Over time you are more or less forced to. New versions/updates of Windows or your hardware may force you to install updates that may in turn require an update of the sim which may in turn require updates of the addons in case of compatibility issues and so on. And those addons may be old and no longer supported, be cuase the developer want you to run the recent versions. They sometimes even disable online activation services for those addons to force you to upgrade.

Lots of "may" in there, no "will". I still run P3Dv3.4 and it's fine.

2 hours ago, Multisim said:

Unfortunately the P3D community headed in the other direction, being very defensive when people pointed out bugs and constructive critisism and feature requests. This is why it's now heading in the same direction as FSX, because all that remains of the P3D community is the "it's good enough so I really don't care" people. A community that doesn't care is a dead community. A dead community is the end of a software. Banning poeple who point this out isn't going to help you either (I seem to be next in line for that).

That's your opinion which I doubt is shared by many here. Don't come into this forum slagging off a product you (presumably) no longer use and insult the members by telling them they "don't really care".

We don't ban people for having a different opinion but you're clearly trying to stir the pot with your comments for no good reason. Any further posts in the same light and we might decide you're trolling and there are definite penalties for that.

2 hours ago, Multisim said:

Over time you are more or less forced to. New versions/updates of Windows or your hardware may force you to install updates that may in turn require an update of the sim which may in turn require updates of the addons in case of compatibility issues and so on. And those addons may be old and no longer supported, be cuase the developer want you to run the recent versions. They sometimes even disable online activation services for those addons to force you to upgrade.

This is not appearent at first. Many people stayed with FSX because "it's good enough". Sooner or later they had to upgrade their old/broken hardware, which forced them to update the gpu driver, which caused CTDs and other issues in FSX, which was no longer maintained. Sooner or later that kind of chain of events will happen if you stay with the current version of everything. That's why it's good to think one step ahead instead of just thinking what you have is good enough.

More important though, if everyone thinks that everything is good enough, there is absolutely no incitament for the developer to move forward and fix bugs and create new features. If you really love P3D then the best thing you can do to keep it alive is to be an active community that really puts preassure on the developer to move forward and keep up with the competitors. Unfortunately the P3D community headed in the other direction, being very defensive when people pointed out bugs and constructive critisism and feature requests. This is why it's now heading in the same direction as FSX, because all that remains of the P3D community is the "it's good enough so I really don't care" people. A community that doesn't care is a dead community. A dead community is the end of a software. Banning poeple who point this out isn't going to help you either (I seem to be next in line for that).

this is a really odd argument.  Nobody is suggesting of course that p3d in its current for will be usable for decades.  You are really stretching to suggest new GPU drivers are not compatible or cause CTD's with fsx or p3d.  Yes, certain driver versions can have hiccups.  But that's also case with the newest sims.  Even not including the very lucrative military and commercial customers, P3D still has a decent size base.  One that has shrunk a lot no doubt.  But many people still CANNOT USE MSFS even if they wanted to.  Multi monitor support.  Home cockpit support etc.  You seem to only (literally) comment on topics about the death of p3d which is somewhat strange and sort of sad at the same time.  I can assure you that there are people with home cockpits in the tens of thousands of dollars who are still getting terrific enjoyment and realism out of p3d that cannot be rivaled in other new sims.  One day maybe.  

I too have discovered just how stable and fun that Prepar3d is now with v5.3. Sure I don’t see my house as I depart KPNS for a flight. Oh the horror. When I feel like I am missing my back yard then I struggle my way out of my comfortable chair and look out the window……I know that is old fashion but it can still be done. Hell the other day I saw a woman in the back yard who looked somewhat familiar and so I raised the window and after talking to her and asking a few questions, turns out it was my wife. I have not seen her in months!!! lol!

I don’t care how many folks troll their way here to tell us how old and stupid we are. I will not be going anywhere as log as the other sim is just one forced update from starting all over again or your continue to see the near daily cry for help because they can can not even get the software to down load. 

P3dv4.5HF2 is considerably more than "good enough" on my PC. I am thoroughly enjoying my short flights at multiple airports in highly detailed scenery areas with two superbly detailed and realistic aircraft. Whether MSFS is ultimately "better" or not is irrelevant.

Edited April 14, 20224 yr by Christopher Low

1 hour ago, d.tsakiris said:

😂

Edit: A surprisingly (at least for me) high number of people still use FSX, by the way. By that definition, even FSX isn't dead.

Judging by the up/download activity in the library, there's still a pretty active FS9 user base, too.  19 years on and still going.

There's been a vocal "P3D is dead" crowd ever since some pretty pictures showed up the day of the MSFS announcement at the E3 convention in 2019.  The reports of its demise were, and still are, greatly exaggerated.

"Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."  I will never forget how the corporate execs at Microshaft summarily axed ACES Studio and Flight Simulator development in a callous betrayal of a very loyal user base.  The minute M$ ever decides to shut off the Azure cloud to MSFS, stick a fork in it, it's done right then and there.  Asobo says that MSFS is a 10-year project--it's still not ready for prime time yet and already approaching 20% through that service life now.  What happens at the end of that service life, or sooner when MSFS is considered old-hat and not getting much love in the XBox gaming space?  In contrast, P3D is a training platform that's an adjunct to a broad support ecosystem Lockheed Martin provides for its real-world systems.  Microsimulation is a super cost-effective training tool that's getting a lot of attention from those big-money paying customers these days so I don't see P3D going anywhere anytime in the foreseeable future.  The branch I used to run at the Pentagon manages the USAF budget and future development policy for simulation training, so I have some idea what "big money" really means. 

So...if we're gonna have a discussion about how various sims might fare over time, it's probably worth considering the lessons of history and the big picture outside our niche hobby world.

 

If I want to look at the scenery above all other considerations I’d buy MSFS.

If I want to fly an aircraft and monitor its systems P3D fulfils that completely.

It seems to me that once you’re flying in overcast conditions the main benefit of MSFS is lost. But megabytes of scenery you’ll never see is still being downloaded.

And finally, I can operate the INS in Concorde in v3.4. The newly released DCD Concorde cannot have an INS because MSFS cannot accept lat / lon. That sim still has a long way to go until its SDK is as comprehensive as P3D’s.

P3D does what it does very well. Visually it's leaps and bounds even from when I first started using v4 (the pre-PBR versions). Even without much in the way of fancy ground scenery it still does a pretty good job on the immersion front. A good deal comes from the aircraft itself.

There's some nuance as well in what different flight sims give and what you're looking for. I started out on FSX with default aircraft and addons that weren't top-notch in systems depth but gave you a chance to try lots of different aircraft and explore, I still somewhat miss flying the CLS 747 Classic even if it never scratched the surface of the real aircraft and pales in comparison to PMDG's -400. Systems depth and flying realistic procedures came later. There's more opportunities for exploring than ever right now, if not in P3D, but P3D still plays to its strengths.

I flew a challenging approach into RJAA today in the 747-400F, there was rain, a strong crosswind, my visibility was restricted by clouds and I very nearly had to go around after touchdown when a gust of wind kicked me back into the air, all very seamless. The pieces all fit together really well these days and flying in P3D is enjoyable, challenging and dare I say pretty realistic. It's a nice package and, while further improvements are always nice, there isn't really much more I want (other than a study level 747 Classic, which is up to Just Flight rather than LM).

Plus there's a decent freeware community, if anything the way people have managed to revive the old CLS DC10 and up the systems depth is pretty impressive.

Edited April 14, 20224 yr by SimeonWilbury

11 hours ago, Nocturnal said:

The good thing about this simulator is that even if there is a version upgrade, we are not forced to update it. 😉

Instead they just make you wait an age until you are desperate for an update. 

13 minutes ago, rocketlaunch said:

Instead they just make you wait an age until you are desperate for an update. 

I think the whole point of the OP's original post is precisely that we do not find ourselves desperately wanting for an update--that the sim is in pretty good shape now.  I would agree with that.  Before someone goes and tries to put words in my mouth that I'm saying there's no need for any further improvement ever, no, I'm not saying that at all--there's always room to improve.  But, as one of my early military bosses once drilled into us: "perfect is the enemy of good enough."  I can comfortably say that P3D has reached the point of "good enough" to where I can conduct a profile worthy of professional training from initial flight planning all the way to shut-down without any significant compromise. 

6 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

Judging by the up/download activity in the library, there's still a pretty active FS9 user base, too.  19 years on and still going.

There's been a vocal "P3D is dead" crowd ever since some pretty pictures showed up the day of the MSFS announcement at the E3 convention in 2019.  The reports of its demise were, and still are, greatly exaggerated.

"Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."  I will never forget how the corporate execs at Microshaft summarily axed ACES Studio and Flight Simulator development in a callous betrayal of a very loyal user base.  The minute M$ ever decides to shut off the Azure cloud to MSFS, stick a fork in it, it's done right then and there.  Asobo says that MSFS is a 10-year project--it's still not ready for prime time yet and already approaching 20% through that service life now.  What happens at the end of that service life, or sooner when MSFS is considered old-hat and not getting much love in the XBox gaming space?  In contrast, P3D is a training platform that's an adjunct to a broad support ecosystem Lockheed Martin provides for its real-world systems.  Microsimulation is a super cost-effective training tool that's getting a lot of attention from those big-money paying customers these days so I don't see P3D going anywhere anytime in the foreseeable future.  The branch I used to run at the Pentagon manages the USAF budget and future development policy for simulation training, so I have some idea what "big money" really means. 

So...if we're gonna have a discussion about how various sims might fare over time, it's probably worth considering the lessons of history and the big picture outside our niche hobby world.

My view as well. You only have to look at the most recent upgrades of P3D to see what is going on - it is all under the hood stuff about connectivity, multi-user platforms and a lot of stuff that keeps a systems administrator happy. Yes there are areas where improvement could be made but that raises the question for whom and why? There are still a number of internal bugs or glitches to do with menus etc that are annoying but not so when you consider that external and alternative software program (ala lets say Active Sky or Navigraph or even FSUIPC) does the job better which gives me a clue as to how far they will go to make this sim an all in one out of the box system - that they won't because they are not doing that. What I see is LM picking out the cream of modern computer graphics (True Sky, EA, NVIDIA) and incorporating that for the simulator fidelity. The strength of this platform is precisely its functionality with addons (broadly) software compatibility and incorporating that functionality. Your never going to get an internet dependent scenery whizz world ala MSFS because I cannot think of a single military or defence user that would countenance that form of open security hole to their systems - its got to stand alone or be restricted. Yes I have no doubt that LM has been adept at harnessing or bringing on board private consumers ala the hobbiest - after all it has been the dedicated and critically focused user test group (us) and it has not compromised the overall progress of the P3D system at all. Now that it is effectively a true 64 bit stable system with tried and true bolt on addon software capacity it is positioned to cater for military then commercial training customers for quite some time, I expect change from here on to be small and almost invisible incrementally. 

As a former military instructor I am very happy that LM made the decision to take on FSX upgrade it and allow a significant degree of backward compatibility (why reinvent the wheel?) The graphics quality is more that adequate for use as a real world flight training tool. after all the real world training systems are focused on getting people up to speed and competent at performing complex tasks in a high workload environment not doodling about the countryside looking for your Aunts house.  Maybe only 30 or so training modules it is actually used for but that 30 will be done by 30 this month then another 30 next month and so it goes over and over. This it now does very well now indeed. The Bonus? Well at least they kept the pistons alive in this virtual world because there are no pistons in the military these days at all!

Edited April 14, 20224 yr by coastaldriver

The fact that military/commercial customers will keep using P3D for years to come doesn't mean much to scenery and aircraft devs who depend on "academic" license customers. The numbers reported by devs speak for themselves. Sure, things are "good enough" now, but what happens when V6 drops? Where's the incentive for devs to keep the products updated?