May 28, 20224 yr Aside from a few special, handcrafted locations showcased in XP12 previews, all the default ground scenery in these preview videos is: 1) darkened to prevent you from seeing it, 2) blurred to prevent you from seeing it, or 3) hidden behind clouds to prevent you from seeing it. They obviously know they have a big problem with antiquated global scenery. If you doubt what I'm saying, watch any of the preview videos again. Processor: Intel i9-13900KF 5.8GHz 24-Core, Graphics Processor: Nvidia RTX 4090 24GB GDDR6, System Memory: 64GB High Performance DDR5 SDRAM 5600MHz, Operating System: Windows 11 Home Edition, Motherboard: Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX, LGA 1700, CPU Cooling: Corsair H100i Elite 240mm Liquid Cooling, RGB and LCD Display, Chassis Fans: Corsair Low Decibel, Addressable RGB Fans, Power Supply: Corsair HX1000i Fully Modular Ultra-Low-Noise Platinum ATX 1000 Watt, Primary Storage: 2TB Samsung Gen 4 NVMe SSD, Secondary Storage: 1TB Samsung Gen 4 NVMe SSD, VR Headset: Meta Quest 2, Primary Display: SONY 4K Bravia 75-inch, 2nd Display: SONY 4K Bravia 43-inch, 3rd Display: Vizio 28-inch, 1920x1080. Controller: Xbox Controller attached to PC via USB.
May 28, 20224 yr 45 minutes ago, David Mills said: Aside from a few special, handcrafted locations showcased in XP12 previews, all the default ground scenery in these preview videos is: 1) darkened to prevent you from seeing it, 2) blurred to prevent you from seeing it, or 3) hidden behind clouds to prevent you from seeing it. They obviously know they have a big problem with antiquated global scenery. If you doubt what I'm saying, watch any of the preview videos again. Pure speculation on your part. They show you what they want you to see, doesnt mean the rest of its bad, But it wont matter in sure many will find something to pick on.
May 28, 20224 yr 1 hour ago, David Mills said: Aside from a few special, handcrafted locations showcased in XP12 previews, all the default ground scenery in these preview videos is: 1) darkened to prevent you from seeing it, 2) blurred to prevent you from seeing it, or 3) hidden behind clouds to prevent you from seeing it. They obviously know they have a big problem with antiquated global scenery. If you doubt what I'm saying, watch any of the preview videos again. I personally explained it to you in a previous comment + the latest dev blog explains it to all, multiple times. Global scenery is under recuts and reworked autogen algorithms, as long as it is not done, we won't see any new footage of it. This includes baked in data that is needed to work with new features like 3d water. Here is the latest comment on the topic, note the laat line as well: You could use HD mesh - just as you could use ANY XP11 scenery. As it falls under the general backwards compatibility of scenery in X-Plane. BUT It makes little sense. As many of the new XP12 features like seasons, environmental noises, 3D water, water colors, roads, autogen improvements etc etc would not be available then. And many of the improvements of HD mesh (more current OSM data) are actually bested by XP12 Global scenery - which uses, just as HD mesh did back in the days it was made - the most recent data available. So in a way - just as XP11 Global Scenery was outdated compared to HD mesh, HD mesh will be outdated compared to XP12 Global scenery. And wrt to the concerns about data size vs DVD distribution - there are many ways to improve on that. I would not worry about speculating on that until the X-Plane 12 public beta is out. Even alpha testers do NOT have access to or information about the final XP12 Global scenery - the current alpha is still using a hybrid of XP11 scenery with some of the necessary data for XP12 features injected. Edited May 28, 20224 yr by mtaxp
May 28, 20224 yr 2 hours ago, Claviateur said: To add some points to the questions asked earlier in this thread, as for what XP12 has to offer more than XP11 or MSFS: As a platform, the world engine of XP12 is the same as 11 (and 10) and not a new engine / platform / tech... It is certainly refreshed and updated only in some aspects as in the previewed refinements and updates (atmospheric lighting, weather, precipitation, clouds etc.) The terrain architecture seem the same to me, based on all previews I saw so far... If it was a new platform / terrain / world engine tech, LR would have put it in bold and underlined it... And we would have seen many previews showcasing the new terrain tech... I created scenery for XP11 from 2016 to 2020 and then gave up because the terrain architecture is too stiff... Somehow locked... Back then I asked if the engine of XP might be replaced and they said no... So I bet XP12 uses the same engine... refreshed as LR did for 10 and 11... Minus the terrain aspect, as far as the latest previews show... Yes they replaced the billboard trees with 3D trees featuring individual branches and leaves (that I am not sure are the best strategy in a flight simulator and less effective and realistic when it comes to creating clutter and density in forests as perceived from the air). And maybe they worked on a new set of procedural ground and facades textures... Some extra custom 3D infrastructure for the default library... Etc. It is a great upgrade from XP11 but to me it is XP11.6 🙂 I would not go as far as calling it New Gen or Next Gen because this would mean a new engine / platform... I am not promoting any sim here but objectively, MSFS has, as for now, the most high budget and cutting edge modern world engine tech with high level of immersion not available yet in any flight sim type (including entertainment or training)... Improvements to the legacy mesh system are coming in the mid-term xp12 run IIRC from an org comment, they are already working on it. Other than that, imo x-plane does not have any major scenery system changes that should be done and the current system is perfectly fine. Personally I'd say calling it 11.6 just because it has *only* the same mesh system is a lack of basic understanding the introduced features.
May 28, 20224 yr Scenery bridge is the way to go... Maybe one day someone can offer a way to run XP12 or XP11 with MFS visuals, just as it can be done do with Aerowinx PSX or ELITE. mfs2020 aerowinx - YouTube This way all of what we like, visually, in MFS can merge with the X-Plane flight dynamics and overall oppeness to detailled systems modelling and give users the best of two worlds... For me XP11 scenery is more than enough if IFR or playing being an airline pilot is my aim, but if I want to play a task I flew IRL or plan to fly in my glider then MFS is just perfect, even if the gliders there feel all but gliders. Well, unfortunately in this area XP11 is no better - maybe XP12 FM enhancements can make any thing for gliders ... Edited May 28, 20224 yr by jcomm Flying gliders since 1980 Flightsimming since 1992 AMD Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB, 1 TB and 500 GB nvme2 SSD drives, HP 27" 60Hz LED monitor @ 1920x1080, T16000, Hotas from old X52 Pro, Saitek Combat Rudder Pro (2010 model)
May 28, 20224 yr 2 hours ago, mjrhealth said: Pure speculation on your part. Seriously? Laminar Research customer -- Asobo/MS customer -- not an X-Aviation customer - or am I? 😉
May 28, 20224 yr 2 hours ago, rka said: Seriously? Yep. So many Nay Sayers with there expert observation. Surprised we dont have more flight sims with so many experts out there
May 28, 20224 yr Is the only reason not streaming online maps to x plane 12 high costs? Or difficulty for building such a program, software etc? For example Mfs have done this via blackshark ai company. Uygar Best Regards
May 28, 20224 yr 6 hours ago, mtaxp said: Improvements to the legacy mesh system are coming in the mid-term xp12 run IIRC from an org comment, they are already working on it. Other than that, imo x-plane does not have any major scenery system changes that should be done and the current system is perfectly fine. Personally I'd say calling it 11.6 just because it has *only* the same mesh system is a lack of basic understanding the introduced features. Sorry maybe I exaggerated the 11.6 analogy... And thanks for the info about the mesh system that will be revised... From scenery design perspective, it is not a question of mesh system now in 2023... Mesh is an old term / tech that is no more a big deal now... I am referring to the terrain technology behind rendering the world components at different layers and making it immersive and flexible as well, just like modern engines do... XP world engine is an old tech that is being retouched and refreshed but this should usually cover all aspects of the engine... The actual terrain tech (as previewed in XP12 videos) looks dated and odd vs the other refreshed elements in my opinion... In 2022 / 23 I am sure there are many solutions out there to make XP immersive enough from the ground up... And I am not saying they should / could go with the big budget AI scanning / aerial etc / live data streaming tech like MS ________________________________LEBOR SIMULATIONSScenery for Flight Simulators since 1998
May 28, 20224 yr 5 hours ago, jcomm said: Scenery bridge is the way to go... Maybe one day someone can offer a way to run XP12 or XP11 with MFS visuals, just as it can be done do with Aerowinx PSX or ELITE. mfs2020 aerowinx - YouTube Very interesting, thanks for sharing. There is also the AirlandFS external helicopter flight model that connects to MSFS for better helicopter flight models. Also on MSFS Forum there are developers who are discussing technically speaking ways to connect more external custom flight models to MSFS. XP to FS could be a bit touchy business wise (no idea if either or both companies would like that) but technically I am sure someone out there can make the link ________________________________LEBOR SIMULATIONSScenery for Flight Simulators since 1998
May 28, 20224 yr 25 minutes ago, Claviateur said: Sorry maybe I exaggerated the 11.6 analogy... And thanks for the info about the mesh system that will be revised... From scenery design perspective, it is not a question of mesh system now in 2023... Mesh is an old term / tech that is no more a big deal now... I am referring to the terrain technology behind rendering the world components at different layers and making it immersive and flexible as well, just like modern engines do... XP world engine is an old tech that is being retouched and refreshed but this should usually cover all aspects of the engine... The actual terrain tech (as previewed in XP12 videos) looks dated and odd vs the other refreshed elements in my opinion... In 2022 / 23 I am sure there are many solutions out there to make XP immersive enough from the ground up... And I am not saying they should / could go with the big budget AI scanning / aerial etc / live data streaming tech like MS The biggest problem is the lack of connection between mesh vs overlays. Overlays are fully controllable, mesh is legacy and very dated system. This is why orthos+ equivalent overlays, like ORBX true earth or MSFS look better as footprints match. You have no roads cutting through fields that look weird. This is all 100% related to the mesh system (which controls how ground textures are placed). When this is solved even the current terrain art work should look 100x better, potentially surpassing orthos as all the art is creatrd to match each other and react to shaders. (Unlike orthos where you remain with baked shadows and roads under bridges on the ground) Edited May 28, 20224 yr by mtaxp
May 28, 20224 yr 2 hours ago, spitzer said: Is the only reason not streaming online maps to x plane 12 high costs? Or difficulty for building such a program, software etc? For example Mfs have done this via blackshark ai company. I think you are referring to two different things here: The architecture of MSFS world engine, makes it possible to have a first layer of generic ground textures (if you disabled live data streaming) and the result is no better than XP or FSX... Over this generic (offline) mode, another layer of ground tiles is a live streamed Bing tiles... And over these other layers of data driven procedural infrastructure and vegetation... This terrain architecture is obviously not present in XP thus I am not sure an external app can feed XP with (aerial) tiles to replace the generic textures... In MSFS there is this external app you run and it replaces default Bing tiles with other aerial sources... Simply because the Sim world engine / terrain architecture is ready for that... Blackshark AI is a company that scanned the huge Bing data to extract (with Machine Learning), the footprints (along with some metadata) and vegetation zones... But the scanned data is also mixed with Bing vector + OSM as well... So I am not sure at all an app could feed XP11 or XP12 with aerial tiles to replace the default ones (unless they are revamping the terrain architecture in XP12 as we speak), because XP terrain architecture and technology was not created like MSFS terrain engine is... XP terrain is an older tech + somehow locked Edited May 28, 20224 yr by Claviateur ________________________________LEBOR SIMULATIONSScenery for Flight Simulators since 1998
May 28, 20224 yr 32 minutes ago, Claviateur said: And thanks for the info about the mesh system that will be revised... Just adding the source: the comments in this thread: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/255845-distant-terrain-geometry/ The way to higher terrain resolution isn't as easy as cranking up the resolution as done in UHD mesh - as that doesn't scale well. But the world terrain texturing will possibly get a resolution bump, so the artefacts at dsf transition and beyond will be notably improved. And the color tint change thre known as "red mud" is already fixed. Many things beyond that have been discussed at Laminar, but the scope of changes for the initial xp12 release has to unfortunately be kept to stop short of that. This also ties into roads, how they drape onto (hint: into) the terrain and thats why the current road editing capabilities won't be allowed on the gateway even for xp1200. As all that is expected to change in the sim, in the forseeable future. So there will be changes, but these have to wait for some release after 12.00. See also Ben's fsexpo talk. Yes, some point these things will change. But first the Global Scenery needs to be authored a bit different so the data amount scales with latitude properly - so rendering load will NOT go up. And actually - VRAM size isn't really the limit right now, but rather sheer triangle throughput.Some of these changes in the Global Scenery creation are already in XP12 and there are other changes planned to the terrain rendering architecture for later in the XP12 run (read - NOT in the initial XP12.00 release) that would also greatly help all that. So when that terrain engine rework gets merged I expect the rendering distance at high latitudes can also be made more adaptive or otherwise improved
May 28, 20224 yr 10 minutes ago, mtaxp said: The biggest problem is the lack of connection between mesh vs overlays. Overlays are fully controllable, mesh is legacy and very dated system. This is why orthos+ equivalent overlays, like ORBX true earth or MSFS look better as footprints match. You have no roads cutting through fields that look weird. This is all 100% related to the mesh system (which controld how ground textures are placed). When this is solved even the current terrain art work should look 100x better, potentially surpassing orthos as all the art is creatrd to match each other and react to shaders. (Unlike orthos where you remain with baked shadows and roads under bridges on the ground) Hopefully this will boost the immersive (VFR) factor of XP12... Well, the bottom idea is that in my opinion, a PC flight sim today should not only be seen as mainly for IFR as it was in 90s... With the latest tech and possibilities in creating virtual worlds, a PC flight sim should be also an immersive world wide engine experience for VFR / Bush Flying / Helicopters (like MSFS world engine allows). What MSFS world engine allowed is certainly a world wide immersive and life like experience for VFR / Bush and Helicopters (not referring to flight modeling obviously) and the best of all, people who live in areas of the world that were dull and empty in all previous flight sim world engine technologies, and who felt neglected, can live a very rewarding VFR experience out of the box with this platform... But I understand it is very costly for LR to go on the same path of MS and build data for a world wide coverage (even without orthos)... ________________________________LEBOR SIMULATIONSScenery for Flight Simulators since 1998
May 28, 20224 yr 10 minutes ago, Claviateur said: Hopefully this will boost the immersive (VFR) factor of XP12... Well, the bottom idea is that in my opinion, a PC flight sim today should not only be seen as mainly for IFR as it was in 90s... With the latest tech and possibilities in creating virtual worlds, a PC flight sim should be also an immersive world wide engine experience for VFR / Bush Flying / Helicopters (like MSFS world engine allows). What MSFS world engine allowed is certainly a world wide immersive and life like experience for VFR / Bush and Helicopters (not referring to flight modeling obviously) and the best of all, people who live in areas of the world that were dull and empty in all previous flight sim world engine technologies, and who felt neglected, can live a very rewarding VFR experience out of the box with this platform... But I understand it is very costly for LR to go on the same path of MS and build data for a world wide coverage (even without orthos)... Wait those are 2 different things. Even for the long term talk that Ben gave at the keynote they are NOT planning to add orthos as ground textures, rather, they are planning to use them in their algorithms to get the world void areas more accurate so they place their own ground textures accuratly. A new mesh system is a complete different topic, something they are already working on and not related to data or high end coropartion budget. See my last comment with relevant quotes.
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