America 4th July

[Paul Golding 92]

LOL!!! So when she walks through the door it goes a bit like...........Ello dwarlin. Ov cawse I'm not drunk, jus ad a bit too mush toddy ats awl...........hic!

[Guest iholrf]

> OK Peter. I missed part about the P51D in the "Shockwave>advertisement". But, I never suggested you were drunk. Too>much toddy is, indeed, not the same as being drunk. I tell my>wife this all the time :-) .>>DougOoops, me too. I thought this was just a convo. I see they listed some of the others I mentioned as well...

[W2DR 1,859]

You're close :-) .

[scott967 62]

Hey --The Mustang is still being made and when was the last Sptifire? 73 or 74??. Don't know about the P51D, but the GT500 is pretty sweet and probably puts out more KW.scott s..

[LAdamson 240]

So...........How come the P-51 just sounds better than the Spit, considering they both have used RR engines?Must be the Mustangs belly radiator outlet or something! :7 No better sound anywhere, that the North American P-51 Mustang!!!Harley's come in second... :-hah L.Adamson

[Guest DreamFleet]

What's the real point of your post, Peter? No offense intended, my good man.Or, let me ask this:Having spent far more money travelling in Britain than I have in the USA (thus, I truly have no bias), let me ask this:1. How many American-built aircraft did the British operate under their flag during WWII?2. How many British-built aircraft did the Americans operate under their flag during WWII?Which aircraft performed better?1. The Spitfire2. The P-51 MustangWhich country was the first to operate the P-51 Mustang?1. The United States2. Great BritainSeriously, when you consider that the P-51 benefited from the Merlin engine, and that Britain ordered at least 1,000 of them ( how many Spits did ther USA order?) and put them into service FIRST, it's not a matter of who recognizes what. It's a matter of facts.To quote you:"Now if we showed these profiles all over the world to different people and different races and different ages I'd put any money you like on a beat that more people would recognize the Spitfire."I do not know if I would take a bet on that if I were you, as you are probably not aware of just how popular the P-51 was, and not just in the USA, and not just during WWII. The P-51 was used in FAR more countries than the Spitfire ever was!Did you know that the P-51 was used by South Korea, Cuba, China? Did you know that at least 27 countries used the P-51 in one fashion or another?Did you know that the last country to use the P-51 was the Dominican Republic, who ceased use as late as 1990?Can you say the same about the Spitfire or, for that matter, the BF-109?Needless to say, I disagree with you, and I think the P-51 would win the overall recognition contest in the piston fighter category hands down!To quote you:"Now to an American maybe it's the most recognized airplane ever"What? :-lolI would NEVER say that the P-51 is the most-recognized aircraft in the USA. That would probably go to the Piper Cub, the Cessna 172, the Beech V-35, the Boeing 747, etc. If we are just talking piston military aircraft then, yes, perhaps the P-51, if we are talking fighters, otherwise the C-47 or B-17 would probably take honors.Otherwise, You might want to check up on your history of the P-51 and aircraft in general.I love Britain, and mean no offense, but you started this!Again, no offense intended, my good man, but when you put your post under the name "America 4th July", you had best be sure you have your facts straight, and I dare say that you do not. Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[EngineRoom 205]

The Spit can be a very emotive aircraft for anyone British with more than a passing interest in aviation.I believe it was the only Allied fighter to be in production for the whole of the Second World War. I believe it saw service in more fronts and theatres than any other fighter.The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone* against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.Dare I say it, fine aircraft the P-51 was, we probably could have won the war without it. By the time the Mustang started making its presence felt in Europe contemporary British fighters and US types were already a match for Luftwaffe types. The Luftwaffe was being bled to death on the Eastern Front and it can be argued Germany was already beaten, it was just a matter of time. Then of course there is always the argument that the Allied Bomber Offensive was not as effective as many would like to think.However, if the Spit and Hurri were not around in sufficient quantities in 1940 the war, and world history could quite possibly have taken a very different course.Still, there is no doubt the Mustang was a fine fighter flown by extremely competent and brave men, just as the Spitfire was.Unfortunately most people don't give a monkey's about history these days. We live in a dumbed down culture and if you put an average person in front of a Spit or Mustang they will just say "Oh, an aeroplane. So what?" They're more likely to be far more interested in who got evicted from Big Bother last night.Now for a real aviation icon that is recognised by the general population..... Concorde.

[Guest Kingair315]

>The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can>claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its>darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone*>against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.>And if it were not for the Canadian and American Pilots who flew in them, they would not have played such a pivotal role in saving a nation. Britain and the Commonwealth did not "stand alone" against Germany and Italy. Where would have Britain have been, without the Merchant Marine, and all the lend-lease fuel, food, and munitions. My Uncles fought and died on or above British soil, flying British aircraft, while others died in the Atlantic on Merchant Ships.... while American Taxpayers paid for Billions of Dollars in Lend-Lease, which has never been repaid. It does not really matter which aircraft is most recognized, it only matters that:As long as the U.S. exists, Britain will -never- "be alone."

[tf51d 284]

>The Spit can be a very emotive aircraft for anyone British>with more than a passing interest in aviation.>>I believe it was the only Allied fighter to be in production>for the whole of the Second World War. I believe it saw>service in more fronts and theatres than any other fighter.I believe that title would have to go to the P-40, it seved in Europe the Pacific, China (AVG Flyig Tigers), and the Russian Front via the lend/lease act. >>The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can>claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its>darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone*>against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.efTrue the Spitfire was an excellant fighter for it's time but the fact is The Luftwaffe lost 1733 aircraft to Britains RAF 915. That's less than a 2 to 1 Kill to loss ratio, and that included the Hurricane which many believe actually played a greater role in the BOB than the Spit. Meanwhile the Mustang racked up 4900+ aerial kills and 4100+ ground kills for a Kill ratio of 11 to 1. (And that still wasn't the best of the War, that title went to the F6F Hellcat with a 19 to 1 ratio) Could you imagine what you could have done to the Germans if you had Mustangs then? Plus with it's range, you could have taken the fight right to Germany much sooner.>>Dare I say it, fine aircraft the P-51 was, we probably could>have won the war without it. By the time the Mustang started>making its presence felt in Europe contemporary British>fighters and US types were already a match for Luftwaffe>types. The Luftwaffe was being bled to death on the Eastern>Front and it can be argued Germany was already beaten, it was>just a matter of time. Then of course there is always the>argument that the Allied Bomber Offensive was not as effective>as many would like to think.>Yes it's possible, but without it the Bombing campaign would have completely failed, the loss rate of Allied Bombers before it's introduction was already extremely high. This would have meant all of the war factories deep in Germany would still be making weapons, including the V1's and V2's. Also it may have allowed the Germans to produce in much larger quantities it's more advanced weapons like the ME-262 and the King Tiger Tanks. If this had happened it could have greatly affected the outcome. It would also undoubtedly prolonged the war. Yes Germany may have ultimately lost, but Allied losses would be much greater and most likely Russia would have been able to get a much deeper foot hold in Germany then the did. Personally, I always considered the P-51D Mustang as a joint venture between the US and GB. It was Britain that originally ordered it. The USAAF at that time wasn't that interested in it. If it wasn't for the Rolls Royce Merlin it is doubtful the Mustang would have racked up the record it did, as the Allison Engine variants just wasn't up to the task. It was a good low level fighter, but wasn't as effective at high level. The Merlin solved this deficiency.

[FlyingsCool 3]

I'm not sure how many Spitfires were purchased, but the U.S. 31st and 52nd fighter groups both flew the Spit during Operation Torch and for some time after as well I believe.see http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/spitfire/spitops.html

[Guest jboweruk]

tf51d, you're making the age old mistake the US made in Vietnam, counting casualties. The larger picture is the effect such heavy losses had on up till then high morale German aircrew, by the end of the Battle of Britain they were quaking in their boots if told to bomb the UK. Germans would often claim to being shot down by a Spitfire rather than a Hurricane because there was more prestige in it.And who was it said a P51 sounds better? No way on this green Earth, the Spit has the most beautiful sound of all WWII aircraft. Later models of the Spit with updated Gryphon engines could seriously outperform the Mustang, don't forget the first prop plane to breach the sound barrier was a Spitfire XIX.

[Guest Kingair315]

>However, if I asked my mum to look at a Spitfire> and next to it showed a Mustang guess what?>She would not have a clue about the Mustang >but just may guess the spitfire. You might be -very- surprised at her answer. Your Mum might just be able to identify both, in fact she might also identify every British and German aircraft, even better than you. If your Mum is my age, I'd be willing to bet she could identify more WWII aircraft than you. Why? Because our generation learned aircraft recognition in school. We even made models of various aircraft of wood, then painted them black to be used for aircraft identification by spotters. Just for kicks, you might ask her... especially if she is 75+ Bob

[oldbear 33]

I agree with 'Engine Room' on this - the Mustang's principal achievement was to achieve air superiority over Germany in 1944 for the benefit of the USAAF bombing campaign. It had much less of an impact on RAF Bomber Command as we were still operating mostly at night, although we did benefit from the general attrition of Luftwaffe aircraft once the American flyers were cleared to strafe their bases.But valuable though this was, and few would deny the Mustang was one of several war-winning designs, it cannot possibly match the cachet of the Spitfire, which, together with the Hurricane, won the Battle of Britain, the most decisive aerial campaign of the Second World War. No other campaign, not even the combined bomber offensive, was as vital to the outcome of the war. The Spitfire has become truly iconic in a way no other aircraft has become because it represents a nation standing firm against a really bad dude, when all other nations had gone under, or were not yet involved. The Mustang appeared too late to take part in such a life or death struggle. Rather it helped magnificently to ensure a victory that was already guaranteed.Ian

[LAdamson 240]

>And who was it said a P51 sounds better? No way on this green>Earth, the Spit has the most beautiful sound of all WWII>aircraft. Later models of the Spit with updated Gryphon>engines could seriously outperform the Mustang, don't forget>the first prop plane to breach the sound barrier was a>Spitfire XIX.My wife, a certified P-51 and Reno Air Race fanatic, say's you're full of it! :-hah Nothing sounds better than a P-51 she says! I believe her! :D L.Adamson

[LAdamson 240]

>>The Spitfire has become truly iconic in a way no other>aircraft has become because it represents a nation standing>firm against a really bad dude, Not over here, on this side of the pond! The P-51 rules, and that's the end of the subject! Really, it's just a matter of personal opinions, isn't it... ;-) L.Adamson