[21MAY22] PMDG 737-700 Developers Update: Pending Changes

[sdirand 247]

13 hours ago, PilotPete99 said:

 When I consider that I paid $10 less for the Fenix A320 yesterday, which was built from the ground up specifically for MSFS, I do get a bit annoyed with PMDG.

The FENIX price is very good. Most people were expecting it to be higher. But we have to keep in mind those two facts:

1) They are a brand new name in the flightsim community. So maybe, they first have to build a reputation and cannot come with prices as high as PMDG. When their brand will be recognized as a top notch player (and it is surely the case now), maybe they will be able to price their name higher). 

2) They have to face a very good free A320. If the FENIX would have been priced at $100, probably a lot of us would have chosen to stay with the free A320 FBW. At around $60, I bought the Fenix without a lot of hesitation. On the contrary, Leornardo or PMDG have a monopoly. If's not Bredok that caused a lot of troubles to PMDG.

[MDFlier 2,031]

What I really don't understand is why their modeling team hadn't been working on a more detailed model that included a cabin as well as detailed wheel wells, tires, etc. when they have known for over 2 years that they would be selling product in MSFS? Even without specific knowledge of what MSFS was going to include, the one thing we all knew for sure was that it would include a modern graphics engine that would often be feeding GPUs more powerful than the CPUs feeding them. I just feel like it should have been a no-brainer to immediately get the modeling guys to massively pump up the visuals. If when MSFS arrived, they had found that they had gone too far, they could just dial things back in the 3D software before exporting the models. As far as I know, both 3DSMax and Blender worked before MSFS was released. That is just what confused me. The visuals are the easy part. The plane is already done. Spend even a week or two adding some rivets, adding (or fixing) "character" flaws, increase the texture resolution in a place or two and it would have made a huge difference. 

   

[threexgreen 3,139]

4 hours ago, sdirand said:

Not in the short term. I assume they will release the -600 till -900 first. Then the 777, followed by the 747. After that, maybe they will start to work on the 737 MAX. So don't expect it now.

What everybody awaits is probably the EFB. It is scheduled & coming. I just hope it will be as good as the Fenix one. I mean it have to include the take-off performance and things like that or it will be a disapointment.

They also have the 757 on their agenda. As for the EFB offering takeoff performance, I don't see how it would not offer that since all their other EFBs have that feature and so they also already have all the data.

[Jnin 15]

The BAE 146 is right in the middle between PMDG and Fenix, which to my understanding while a step above the CRJ isn't quite on par with either the A320 or 737 in terms of systems. Then there's the Maddog which seems to be about on par with Fenix and PMDG, but it's price quite a bit higher. Also I know TFDI's pricing strategy for their MD-11 isn't that much different than what the Maddog's doing, so it's not like that's the only aircraft intending on going higher in price.

Personally I have to see more higher end jets coming out at the price the Fenix is to be convinced that their pricing is sustainable long term. Because as is the higher detailed airliners that exist right now honestly suggest to me the Fenix is going to be on the very low end of what's possible in terms of pricing of high end aircraft. And honestly I think the PMDG 737's $70 - $75 price point is going to be where pricing averages out, if not a bit higher considering it seems stuff that is more obscure seeming will either be priced higher, or be lower detail to hit a lower price point based on what we've seen so far. Mind you even Fenix didn't go for this pricing because they were certain it's the right call, they said in their blog announcing the price that they're taking a risk pricing it as low as it is.

Granted could be wrong, it's still early days and more places could release airliners at, or even be dropped to that $60 price point.  And i would be more than happy to be wrong mind you, would absolutely love to see the Maddog & MD-11 come down to $60 or less for sure.

[Cpt_Piett 4,641]

6 hours ago, sdirand said:

It's better to have nice features than not having them, I agree. If the fact you can open the windows in the Fenix is nice, honnestly, how many times will you use it? To be honest, I tryed it one time to see how it worked. Not sure I will use it a second time. On the contrary, the fact that the whole cabin is displayed and you can open the cockpit door and travel in the cabin is nice. Even if I won't use it often.

Still haven't the cockpit windows 😉 I have the cabin turned off - unless I'm watching a replay. 

[rjack1282 316]

19 hours ago, Drumcode said:

Now that the dust has settled and I saw what was delivered from Fenix for a lesser price, I am too annoyed. I’m am not sure what 17k hours of development was spent on, but the deliverables are certainly underwhelming. I hate the drama, so I’m just going to let them as a Company come through with what they promised in the timeline they promised. They’re definitely under some major pressure now to deliver, or they’re going to have to deal with some major revolting. 

I completely agree with everything you said except the last sentence.  Unless there is competition on the Boeing side then they are under no pressure whatsoever.  I too am frustrated but will happily purchase the 777 and 747 for a second (third?) time since I love those aircraft and as of right now, there will be no comparable alternative.

Now if a young company with the skill, innovation, and customer support/interaction such as Fenix comes along and produces an equivalent Boeing, PMDG would be under some pressure.

[Farlis 2,287]

1 hour ago, Jnin said:

And honestly I think the PMDG 737's $70 - $75 price point is going to be where pricing averages out

I doubt that. PMDG aircraft have ALWAYS sat at the higher spectrum of the price range. I remember how ludicrously high their price was for the NG in FS9, when such prices were unheard of.

The only thing of similar ludicrously high price was the scenery add-on "Switzerland Professional" which came in at 120€. Twice as much as the sim itself cost, just to update a small country with photrealistic textures and a high resolution mesh. 😉

[Jnin 15]

7 minutes ago, Farlis said:

I doubt that. PMDG aircraft have ALWAYS sat at the higher spectrum of the price range. I remember how ludicrously high their price was for the NG in FS9, when such prices were unheard of.

The only thing of similar ludicrously high price was the scenery add-on "Switzerland Professional" which came in at 120€. Twice as much as the sim itself cost, just to update a small country with photrealistic textures and a high resolution mesh. 😉

I was referring in comparison to other fairly high end airliners, sure a Captain Sim 767 in terms of raw price is pretty cheap, but it's clear that it ain't anywhere near the same league as Fenix or PMDG. so i find It's a bit silly to compare them. The BAE though? I think that's fair to bring up, it's a fairly advance airliner in its own right,, same goes for the Maddog. And in both cases they're close to, or higher than what PMDG or Fenix are selling their products for. Just because PMDG were at one point the most expensive addon back in 2004 doesn't mean that's going to hold true here, there's a lot more high end developers for flight simulator than back in 2004 after all.

[Ricardo41 5,949]

4 hours ago, MDFlier said:

detailed wheel wells

Compared to the details in the Fenix, the PMDG wheel wells look abysmal - reminds me of Arianedesign's CRJ ca. 1998 - it included a low res pic of the cabin, it was just that - a low res jpeg, fuzzy no detail. 

https://youtu.be/9rBqlATRkec?t=1743

Edited May 23, 2022 by Ricardo41

[LRBS 947]

22 hours ago, threegreen said:

This is getting seriously disrespectful now. I am not constantly challenging people or tell them they're wrong. Especially not when a real world pilot says there's something wrong with it. I'd be pretty stupid to try and deny that don't you think? Did you see me telling the poster I asked that he's wrong? No, you didn't. I'm well aware that the product isn't perfect and that is has bugs. I never denied a bug, not once. As for the times I disagree, it's either because I know it's not a bug or because - you know - I disagree in my own opinion about something, which I think you're having a hard time grasping the concept of.

I asked another person (not you) a simple question who gave a decent answer and it's ridiculous what you make out of that and that you try to call me out for the third time in the forums now to the point of disparaging me as some kind of insincere person. Last time this ended with a moderator deleting your posts, and I'm this close to reporting your posts here if you don't get off my back and stop spreading lies and/or completely misinterpret what I allegedly do or have done - all because we disagreed on some occasions.

Good job btw specifically mentioning the bit about anti-PMDG-parade that I immediately edited back out of my post because I realized that was completely off the mark... very genuine.

I would like to stand correct and change this :

"It is a reaction to your posts where most of the time when somebody calls for a bug/discrepancy you constantly challenge that person or find any excuse of why it is wrong."

and please ignore "constantly", as a poor choice of word.

 

Now, as you mentioned we have different opinions, I'm afraid that you take it very personally when you think that is "seriously disrespectful", "get off my back" and "I'm this close to reporting your posts".

And why?

Because I suggested checking their forum about the bugs or reading the FCOM where you can learn why people are complaining.

Or perhaps, and I will use your statement "I think you're having a hard time grasping the concept of" opinions.

Last note to conclude this unpleasant event, it's nothing personal.

[MDFlier 2,031]

59 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Compared to the details in the Fenix, the PMDG wheel wells look abysmal - reminds me of Arianedesign's CRJ ca. 1998 - it included a low res pic of the cabin, it was just that - a low res jpeg, fuzzy no detail. 

https://youtu.be/9rBqlATRkec?t=1743

That was the 1st thing I did when I flew the 700 for the first time, I popped into drone camera and started looking for new stuff... I found some...

[threexgreen 3,139]

2 hours ago, LRBS said:

I would like to stand correct and change this :

"It is a reaction to your posts where most of the time when somebody calls for a bug/discrepancy you constantly challenge that person or find any excuse of why it is wrong."

and please ignore "constantly", as a poor choice of word.

 

Now, as you mentioned we have different opinions, I'm afraid that you take it very personally when you think that is "seriously disrespectful", "get off my back" and "I'm this close to reporting your posts".

And why?

Because I suggested checking their forum about the bugs or reading the FCOM where you can learn why people are complaining.

Or perhaps, and I will use your statement "I think you're having a hard time grasping the concept of" opinions.

Last note to conclude this unpleasant event, it's nothing personal.

The answer to why is not the FCOM but that you keep thinking I'm "challenging" people just because I asked about what he (or you in the past) were referring to or because I disagree sometimes with people about stuff. I can for the life of me not see why you think there's hostile intent or anything insincere in that, such as in a simple three word question that the person I was actually talking to didn't have any issues with. And yet I keep reading your posts about what I'm apparently doing and what intention I allegedly have which all surmounts to accusations that just aren't true and I've made that repeatedly clear, both here and in the past, and other people have actually tried to tell you the same thing in 'that' other thread. Yet it keeps happening over and over again. I can agree with quite a lot of your posts (including some criticism about PMDG, incidentally) but I want to make very clear that these accusations (just here to argue, pretending, telling everyone they're wrong, finding excuses, not being worth the time talking to (from an older post) etc.) are entirely baseless and have got to stop. I was thinking we had buried this last time, but here we are, so I'm hoping we will be able to do that now and get along better than that.

I was going to shoot you a PM after my first post to avoid annoying everyone else in here, but I saw there are 5 people that upvoted your initial post which I find rather unfortunate so I posted here instead to speak out against what I'm being painted as again. I'll say this a third time - let's please cut this out once and for all.

Edited May 23, 2022 by threegreen

[lwt1971 7,405]

If PMDG had waited 2-3 more months to do better 3d modelling and texturing for the cabin and cockpit, the new EFB, LNAV 2.0, etc (assuming also that the required Asobo support and fixes in the WASM/C++  dev path for some of these items come during that time), there would be a different set of complainers (or maybe same?) whining about it being delayed.  What PMDG did now was to put out a 737-700 that's at par with the P3D version in terms of systems and flight model, and better visuals... and then will provide these new features in the next 2-3 months for free. Given how they develop using C++ and have a huge existing codebase, and their desire to be on the marketplace, and various other factors (which are very different to factors influencing Fenix), what they've done with the 737-700 release seems to me a reasonable set of business and technical decisions.

I'm fairly sure PMDG is not losing sleep over a certain group of users who've flown their birds in FSX/P3D now complaining that it's not different enough in MSFS, or those who're just weirdly bitter about PMDG and/or RSR. They have a set of new and existing customers quite happy with the initial 737-700 release who vastly outnumber this vocal minority, so all this teeth gnashing and venting probably just helps said vocal minority feel better I guess.

As the sales numbers continue to explode for PMDG, this influx of new revenue will help them fund and polish up the 737 line even further than currently planned I think (and updated for free of course)... looking forward to the 777 and 747 which will come out of the gate inheriting all these new features arriving first for the 737 line in the next 2+ months.

Edited May 24, 2022 by lwt1971

[Ricardo41 5,949]

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

If PMDG had waited 2-3 more months to do better 3d modelling and texturing for the cabin and cockpit, the new EFB, LNAV 2.0, etc (assuming also that the required Asobo support and fixes in the WASM/C++  dev path for some of these items come during that time), there would be a different set of complainers (or maybe same?) whining about it being delayed.  

You are making assumptions based on almost no evidence, I'm sorry to say. Nobody is "whining". Some folks are simply pointing out, respectfully, that the above mentioned features should have been included at launch. 

I, for one, would have preferred a delay in order for PMDG to provide a more polished product --> and that, in your book, makes me a "whiner"?

[lwt1971 7,405]

2 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

You are making assumptions based on almost no evidence, I'm sorry to say. Nobody is "whining". Some folks are simply pointing out, respectfully, that the above mentioned features should have been included at launch. 

I, for one, would have preferred a delay in order for PMDG to provide a more polished product --> and that, in your book, makes me a "whiner"?

There were many running around with their hair on fire for any perceived small delays with this 737-700 release even, I was talking about them... I'd say it's not a reach to say that a good majority of customers would prefer the way PMDG is doing it now, in order to get to experience the 737 in MSFS (now, not 2-3+ months from now) at a level which is at par with the P3D version effectively and better visually. The key here is "in MSFS", as there's no 737 at all currently for the sim that's >= medium fidelity. Given that some of these features (i.e. LNAV 2.0) depend on Asobo adding more debugging capabilities for WASM/C++ development, and there is no known timeline from Asobo for this, PMDG's release strategy makes even more sense.