NASA to start UFO investigations...

[martin-w 3,234]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Yes, but at a remote location far from home on a planet that hasn't the technology the home planet has and the time and expense of bringing in machinery why not use a labor force that is already there?

 

The probes are Von Neuman self replicating probes. They mine autonomously and with the materials they mine manufacture more of themselves. People aren't required. The fact that its remote isn't an issue, and no machinery needs to be brought in, one probe does it all and replicates itself.

The labour force that might or might not be there would need to be forced into slave labour, which means guarded with personal, disciplined, given health care and food so they could actually survive and are strong enough to work. One self replicating probe does it all, cheaper, easier, and all autonomous. 

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

If we have self replicating  automated mining probes why aren't they used in places in Africa

 

We obviously don't have that technology. We are talking about an advanced alien species, so advanced that they are interstellar travel capable. Such a species would not require slave labour, because their technology would enable them to create Von Neuman probes. Thus, mining asteroids would be many orders of magnitude easier for them than enslaving a race and making the enslaved race do the work.

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

What makes you think an advanced civilization would be any mkore enlightened than we are?

 

Its not about being enlightened. Its about being more technologically capable and having at your disposure a technology that is orders of magnitude easier than enslaving a race, guarding them, disciplining them, feeding them, clothing them, keeping them healthy enough for work etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft

Interestingly, and a point raised by the Fermi Paradox, is that such a self replication probe, even if traveling at the speed we do now, could spread its offspring through the galaxy in less than half a million years. Given that the galaxy is 13.61 billion years old... you might ask where they are.

[dmwalker 601]

19 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Given that the galaxy is 13.61 billion years old... you might ask where they are.

I think that, with any self replicating process, errors can creep in over several cycles resulting in unintended behaviour, so the originators might be asking the same question.

[martin-w 3,234]

32 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

I think that, with any self replicating process, errors can creep in over several cycles resulting in unintended behaviour, so the originators might be asking the same question.

 

Interesting idea. Although I think an advanced race would have thought of that. 

[dmwalker 601]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

Its about being more technologically capable and having at your disposure a technology that is orders of magnitude easier than enslaving a race, guarding them, disciplining them, feeding them, clothing them, keeping them healthy enough for work etc.

Not to mention the language barrier.

[birdguy 3,943]

Martin, you are assuming a lot of things.  First, that any intelligent species that has the technology to mine autonomously would be bringing those machines with them not really knowing what they would find.  Second, that they are benevolent creatures who would respect us.

Perhaps the Hawaiians also thought that when Capt. Cook first landed there.  But there's a Hawiian saying that sasy, "When they arrived we had the land and they had the Bible.  Now we have the Bible and they have the land."

We still practice that today with people we consider backward and poor by 1st world nations.  Not only in mining but also in agriculture and manufacturing.  

If we had something the aliens wanted they would take it with no intention of staying or settling.  And they would do it with the most economical means at hand.  Manual labor.  It's there, it's cheap and it's easily controlled if you have the power.  They would care about feeding them enough to get work out of them but I doubt they would provide much medical care

Since the beginning of the industrial revolution we have become technologically advanced but have not generally shared that with third world nations.  What the old colonial states have now is the infrastructure left behind by the colonists with a few exceptions like India.

My view of an alien race from another planet with the technology to get this far out in their explorations is they would look quite like us; the only difference being the differences we see in ourselves among the different races.  And they would have the same desires and motivations as our early explorers had.

They might even along some missionaries.

Noel

[sightseer 895]

.

Edited June 20, 2022 by sightseer

[dmwalker 601]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

What the old colonial states have now is the infrastructure left behind by the colonists with a few exceptions like India.

The Indians do have the infrastructure left by the British, especially the railway system, and they have retained the British style civil service. Also, they are pretty good at cricket.

[birdguy 3,943]

2 hours ago, dmwalker said:

Not to mention the language barrier.

I would think any advanced race approaching earth would have learned a lot of the language by the time they got here.  The Portuguese and Spaniards had no problem communicating with the Incas and Mayans when they got there and the Spaniards in California had enslaved the local Indians when they built the missions there.  The New England missionaries who went to Hawaii learned the language rather quickly.

I don't see that as a problem.  The first few months I was in Japan I learned enough of the language to communicate at a basic level.

Noel

[dmwalker 601]

35 minutes ago, birdguy said:

I would think any advanced race approaching earth would have learned a lot of the language by the time they got here.

That's what I thought until I saw the movie "Arrival". The aliens' way of communicating may be incompatible with ours.

[martin-w 3,234]

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

Martin, you are assuming a lot of things.  First, that any intelligent species that has the technology to mine autonomously would be bringing those machines with them not really knowing what they would find.  Second, that they are benevolent creatures who would respect us.

 

No... they don't bring them with them. A Von Neuman probe is simply launched. It does the rest. Von Neuman probes are more about spreading throughout the galaxy than strip mining asteroids or moons or anything. The mining is for the resources to replicate. Once they replicate, the parent probe explores the star system and the offspring probes travel to other star systems. 

Same applies though, If a species requires resources then autonomous technology does the job, no need for squidgy organic crew. The point made earlier was that the asteroids are a far better resource for raw materials, minerals and such than our planet. No need for them to come here. And asteroids are asteroids, they pretty much know what they will find. I never said anything about if they would be benevolent or not in regard to mining, ( that was a previous conversation earlier in the thread) not relevant if they don't come here. 

 

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

If we had something the aliens wanted they would take it with no intention of staying or settling.  And they would do it with the most economical means at hand.  Manual labor.  It's there, it's cheap and it's easily controlled if you have the power.  They would care about feeding them enough to get work out of them but I doubt they would provide much medical care

 

As said, slave labour isn't "economical". Its an expensive endeavour for the reasons stated. Automation, self replicating automation, is free cheap, labour with all resources obtained form the location.

If you disagree with the premise that self replicating machines are easier to manage (you do nothing) than hordes of slaves being fed and looked after, then offer a counterargument. Tell us why? Don't forget, these are self replicating autonomous machines from a civilisation hundreds or thousands of year more advanced than us. Think about our automation and then think what it would be like in the distant future... how capable. No doubt it would be equipped with "true AI" the ability to manipulate matter on the atomic scale etc. Human beings would be an inferior method in comparison.

But as I said, they wouldn't come here for resources anyway. The asteroid belts are the best location. And as said, an advanced culture like that would be able to manipulate matter on the atomic scale and make anything from anything, so again no need to come here. But IF they did, then the most likely scenario in my opinion would be that the automated machines would just ignore us, unless we were a threat.

Edited June 20, 2022 by martin-w

[dmwalker 601]

9 minutes ago, martin-w said:

No... they don't bring them with them.

To mine for resources to replicate, the probes would have to bring some equipment. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by dmwalker

[martin-w 3,234]

2 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

They would have to bring them because they would have to mine first before they can replicate.

 

No! 😁 The parent probe is launched from the home planet. When it encounters a star system it likes the look of it mines asteroids or a moon. With that material it replicates other offspring probes who then go off on their merry way to do the same in neighbouring stray systems. The process then continues. 

[dmwalker 601]

4 minutes ago, martin-w said:

No! 😁 The parent probe is launched from the home planet. When it encounters a star system it likes the look of it mines asteroids or a moon. With that material it replicates other offspring probes who then go off on their merry way to do the same in neighbouring stray systems. The process then continues. 

Your answer was too quick. I hadn't finished editing. I'm only about 10 net words per minute. The point is you are saying it mines asteroids or a moon, so it must bring some equipment to do that.

[DaviiB 104]

If I may.....

Without any real academic credentials to my name I offer the following thought.

Is it possible that we (human beings) have missed, or misunderstand something absolutely fundamental about the nature of reality? Science allows us to observe, form hypotheses, test hypotheses, then draw conclusions.....but.....we are very limited by available technology.

For instance, a few hundred years ago, measuring the width of a human cell....or even detecting its existence.... was impossible (imagine trying to do it with a measuring tape). Measuring, or even detecting radio signals was impossible (Imagine trying to measure wavelength of a radio signal with a ruler).

Perhaps we simply lack the tools to make the right measurements / observations to determine the true nature of our universe. i.e. We don't know what we don't know. We keep claiming there's no (or little) scientific evidence for the existence of aliens, ghosts, or other paranormal things. What if the evidence is everywhere, but we just don't know how to look?

A fun thought:
Go back 1,000 years, give a farmer a smart phone and try to explain what it is.

It's a phone....."what's a phone?"
A communication device........"to communicate with who?"
Other people........"ok, how?"
Using radio signals......."what's that?"
Invisible electromagnetic waves........."show me"
It's invisible........."Then I don't believe you. If I can't see it then it's not real.....how does it work?"
Electricity........"What's that?"
Like lightning........"It uses lightning to work??? Lightning is dangerous...get away from me"

You probably won't get far before being burned at the stake for being a witch. It's a fun thought exercise though....try it with a nuclear reactor, or a car, or an airplane.......

 

My point is we have claims of things that seem impossible, but are using current scientific standards to try to measure / detect them. However, current scientific standards are ill-equipped to investigate these things because they are quite clearly outside of the paradigms within which science operates. 

Not that I have a better solution to offer, but maybe we're trying to measure electricity with a ruler. Maybe we need a completely new paradigm....and in 1,000 years someone will be having a similar discussion on Avsim 9.0 about how we (in the year 2022) could never comprehend X technology, or the existence of Xth dimensional beings, because we can't even reconcile quantum physics with regular physics.....because we think (insert the 3022 equivalent of the earth being flat).

Finding, understanding and interacting with something that exists outside of your current paradigm will likely require methods, techniques and understandings that are way 'outside the box'.....and seem fringe, or pseudo-sciency. Without going too far off the deep end, consider that Einstein was also considered fringe at one time....and Columbus didn't find the new world by using old maps.

Cheers!
DB

Edited June 20, 2022 by DaviiB
Added some colour

[dmwalker 601]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

offspring probes who then go off on their merry way to do the same in neighbouring stray systems.

I wonder how that might work. Would all the target stars be chosen in advance by the originators and programming included for all the offspring probes or would they somehow have the means to locate target stars autonomously?