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2 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

Yes, if the CPU is not properly cooled, HT may trigger substantial thermal throttling and so the higher performance with HT off is explained by higher clocks. The same for the CTDs that ruin the experience of many players and for which they blame MSFS.

I have always suspected that most of the problems that flight simmers report that the majority do not experience have to do with poor cooling of the CPU.

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36 minutes ago, Ixoye said:

I have always suspected that most of the problems that flight simmers report that the majority do not experience have to do with poor cooling of the CPU.

Yes.  And it isn't always their fault. 

Local ambient temperature varies wildly depending on where you live, and even with a Corsair H150i, the motherboard mod and MX5 paste, my 12900k can start throttling this time of year if most of the threads are running above 90%, and that is with no overclock. 

It quite often throttles itself when using Handbrake to decode and backup DVD's, and there is nothing I can do about it.  The case is open with plenty of air movement. Turning off the efficiency cores helps a bit, but not significantly.

It is well known that disabling HT when you encounter throttling is one way to combat temperature issues on the chip, so I think this is what is coming into play here, and people with decent cooling and lower ambient temperatures might not be affected. 

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Call me Bob or Rob, I don't mind, but I prefer Rob.

I like to trick airline passengers into thinking I have my own swimming pool in my back yard by painting a large blue rectangle on my patio.

Intel 14900K in a Z790 motherboard with water cooling, RTX 4080, 32 GB 6000 CL30 DDR5 RAM, W11 and MSFS on Samsung 980 Pro NVME SSD's.  Core Isolation Off, Game Mode Off.

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3 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Yes.  And it isn't always their fault. 

Local ambient temperature varies wildly depending on where you live, and even with a Corsair H150i, the motherboard mod and MX5 paste, my 12900k can start throttling this time of year if most of the threads are running above 90%, and that is with no overclock. 

It quite often throttles itself when using Handbrake to decode and backup DVD's, and there is nothing I can do about it.  The case is open with plenty of air movement. Turning off the efficiency cores helps a bit, but not significantly.

It is well known that disabling HT when you encounter throttling is one way to combat temperature issues on the chip, so I think this is what is coming into play here, and people with decent cooling and lower ambient temperatures might not be affected. 

Even with HT on, my CPU rarely goes above 65c....

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5 hours ago, roi1862 said:

 

It doesn't matter you think or what you found or that it doesn't make sense. The fact is that multiple users reporting the same, and the reports keeps pilling up on MSFS forums and with few streamers i saw. Now its Asobo job to figure out why. That's all  

Numbers are useful, but "multiple users" is not so much.

Edited by icewater5

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22 minutes ago, iFlySimX said:

Even with HT on, my CPU rarely goes above 65c....

Yes - I believe you.  I was running my previous 8800k special edition at 5.2Ghz with no temperature problems in MSFS.  Quite a sizable overclock.

But they have pushed the 12900k to the limit to try to squeeze the performance out of it.  There is no real room for overclocking this chip, unlike previous Intels.
It is still a good chip, and I am happy with it, but running all threads at 100%, even with my cooling, it soon gets to 100C and starts throttling.
Just the way it is designed I think.  Generally the chip is a stormer day to day, but we all know flight sim finds out any weaknesses in computers.

By the way, mine doesn't overheat in MSFS.  If runs about eight of the cores at around 40% if I recall correctly, with one of the cores sometimes going up to about 90% (is this the main thread people talk about?).  I have not checked what is happening in DX12 yet, but I bet this will pile the load on the CPU, as it is supposed to.

 


Call me Bob or Rob, I don't mind, but I prefer Rob.

I like to trick airline passengers into thinking I have my own swimming pool in my back yard by painting a large blue rectangle on my patio.

Intel 14900K in a Z790 motherboard with water cooling, RTX 4080, 32 GB 6000 CL30 DDR5 RAM, W11 and MSFS on Samsung 980 Pro NVME SSD's.  Core Isolation Off, Game Mode Off.

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4 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

There is no distinction between physical cores and HT ones. They are all couples of virtual logical cores for the OS.

When HT is enabled you cannot choose to send instructions to a physical core rather than a "virtual" one. 

Placebo...

As i mentioned i am not a fan of  HT off etc. I made some test flights last night and indeed DX12 and HT off spreads more "equally" the work to threads. With HT enabled there is always the last core hammered with all limitations.

Check attached process lasso preview with rules i described on my previous post. 

also i really aware the placebo effect, and its not.

spacer.png

Edited by Seth2021
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2 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Yes - I believe you.  I was running my previous 8800k special edition at 5.2Ghz with no temperature problems in MSFS.  Quite a sizable overclock.

But they have pushed the 12900k to the limit to try to squeeze the performance out of it.  There is no real room for overclocking this chip, unlike previous Intels.
It is still a good chip, and I am happy with it, but running all threads at 100%, even with my cooling, it soon gets to 100C and starts throttling.
Just the way it is designed I think.  Generally the chip is a stormer day to day, but we all know flight sim finds out any weaknesses in computers.

By the way, mine doesn't overheat in MSFS.  If runs about eight of the cores at around 40% if I recall correctly, with one of the cores sometimes going up to about 90% (is this the main thread people talk about?).  I have not checked what is happening in DX12 yet, but I bet this will pile the load on the CPU, as it is supposed to.

 

I am curious how you got your 12900K running at 100% in MSFS or am I misunderstanding you. I just rebuilt my PC with an i7-12700K & EVGA Ultra 3080TI FW3 and even with no fps lock in place I rarely see the CPU usage above 30%. With the Fenix A320 I still lock the FPS to 30 and with Ultra settings I am currently seeing around 15% CPU@56 degrees and 53% GPU@66 degrees. I also undervolted the 3080TI which makes a huge difference in temps and fan speeds with little to no drop in performance,

I am hoping SU10 will bring some of the performance back, I can hit 60fps in the Fenix but need to dial back some of the settings and even then it isn't consistent especially at busy airports and the GPU temps climb pretty quickly. Last night I flew the Fenix into London Heathrow with live traffic and Ultra settings @ 30FPS, TLOD 200 & OLOD 200 and it was butter smooth, not a single stutter or slowdown right too the gate. It would be really handy if we were able to create several settings presets for different aircraft/situations and easily switch between them.

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Richard

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1 hour ago, RJC68 said:

I am curious how you got your 12900K running at 100% in MSFS or am I misunderstanding you. I just rebuilt my PC with an i7-12700K & EVGA Ultra 3080TI FW3 and even with no fps lock in place I rarely see the CPU usage above 30%. With the Fenix A320 I still lock the FPS to 30 and with Ultra settings I am currently seeing around 15% CPU@56 degrees and 53% GPU@66 degrees. I also undervolted the 3080TI which makes a huge difference in temps and fan speeds with little to no drop in performance,

I am hoping SU10 will bring some of the performance back, I can hit 60fps in the Fenix but need to dial back some of the settings and even then it isn't consistent especially at busy airports and the GPU temps climb pretty quickly. Last night I flew the Fenix into London Heathrow with live traffic and Ultra settings @ 30FPS, TLOD 200 & OLOD 200 and it was butter smooth, not a single stutter or slowdown right too the gate. It would be really handy if we were able to create several settings presets for different aircraft/situations and easily switch between them.

Yes Richard, misunderstanding.  I was talking about others with older chips / less cores etc.  where overheating in MSFS could potentially cause throttling.

If you read my third paragraph it will clear this up.  -  "By the way, mine doesn't overheat in MSFS..." 
It seems my experience is similar to yours with your 12700, as I would expect.

I have only ever had 100% all core usage and throttling due to temperature when using Handbrake (not sure if you are familiar with this video processing software?) or when purposely benchmarking.

PS.  I also under-volt my 3080Ti by 10 percent, standard clocks.  Definitely much cooler and dead stable.  I tried under-volting by 15 percent, but it wasn't fully stable.
I might look at under-volting the 12900k as well, as I am running at standard clocks.  Main reason for me is I prefer cool and quiet (especially of a night time), and my little study room soon gets hot when the PC is working hard.  Any room temperature drop is of benefit.  Some people say I should get air con, but they are possibly confusing me with someone who is very wealthy! :biggrin:

 


Call me Bob or Rob, I don't mind, but I prefer Rob.

I like to trick airline passengers into thinking I have my own swimming pool in my back yard by painting a large blue rectangle on my patio.

Intel 14900K in a Z790 motherboard with water cooling, RTX 4080, 32 GB 6000 CL30 DDR5 RAM, W11 and MSFS on Samsung 980 Pro NVME SSD's.  Core Isolation Off, Game Mode Off.

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24 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Yes Richard, misunderstanding.  I was talking about others with older chips / less cores etc.  where overheating in MSFS could potentially cause throttling.

If you read my third paragraph it will clear this up.  -  "By the way, mine doesn't overheat in MSFS..." 
It seems my experience is similar to yours with your 12700, as I would expect.

I have only ever had 100% all core usage and throttling due to temperature when using Handbrake (not sure if you are familiar with this video processing software?) or when purposely benchmarking.

PS.  I also under-volt my 3080Ti by 10 percent, standard clocks.  Definitely much cooler and dead stable.  I tried under-volting by 15 percent, but it wasn't fully stable.
I might look at under-volting the 12900k as well, as I am running at standard clocks.  Main reason for me is I prefer cool and quiet (especially of a night time), and my little study room soon gets hot when the PC is working hard.  Any room temperature drop is of benefit.  Some people say I should get air con, but they are possibly confusing me with someone who is very wealthy! :biggrin:

 

Ah I see lol

I was trying for the life of me to figure out how the heck you got that CPU to max out all cores in the sim, I thought I was missing something huge 🤣 I will also use this PC to edit my drone footage with Davinci Relsove & Handbrake. I just haven't got around to installing it as I have been excitedly doing as much flying as possible.

So far I have been super impressed with my new build and I stuck with air cooling and thanks too the super stealthy looking black Noctua NH-D15S, this i7-12700K is literally chilling.

I am also originally from the UK so understand completely about your aircon dilemma lol I am lucky as my flight sim is in my basement which stays a cool 18 degrees even during our hot Canadian summers 🙂

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Richard

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1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

I might look at under-volting the 12900k as well, as I am running at standard clocks. 

Yes, highly recommended. VID curves are usually very high because they are supposed to make also the worst specimen stable.

My i9 default vcore at 4800 MHz was around 1.47 V while it's rock stable at 5000 MHz and 1.35 V.

Also my RTX 3090 works flawlessly at 1900 MHz and 0.875 V, a very good compromise if compared to the original 1930 and 1.05 V (I used to see peaks of 1.1 V).

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17 minutes ago, MrFuzzy said:

Yes, highly recommended. VID curves are usually very high because they are supposed to make also the worst specimen stable.

My i9 default vcore at 4800 MHz was around 1.47 V while it's rock stable at 5000 MHz and 1.35 V.

Also my RTX 3090 works flawlessly at 1900 MHz and 0.875 V, a very good compromise if compared to the original 1930 and 1.05 V (I used to see peaks of 1.1 V).

To you think there is point of me OC my i9-9900k to 4.8ghz?

 


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my performance findings with a 9900k, 3080 ti and a 4k 120hz gsync/freesync display (no overclocks on anything):

- hyperthreading off increases overall smoothness (more consistent frame pacing, less stuttering.)

- using nvidia control panel to set the msfs profile to 'fixed refresh' instead of gsync and selecting '20 fps' for the fps limit in msfs' graphics settings (i.e. 1/3rd vsync and 40 fps cap) results increases overall smoothness (more consistent frame pacing, less stuttering.) this doesn't make sense since selecting either '30 fps' or '20 fps' should disable gsync anyway since gsync isn't supported while using 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 refresh rate vsync settings, but i've done back to back testing repeatedly and it absolutely does make a fairly significant difference; settings need to be adjusted to maintain 40 fps though, as dropping below that causes the normal vsync uneven frame pacing. i've also been using 'prefer max performance' for the power setting, although i do need to go back and test it with 'normal' to see if it could save a bit on power consumption.

- i also use nvcp to set 'threaded optimization' and 'triple buffering' to off; contrary to popular belief, 'threaded optimization' isn't a catch-all term, but specifically refers to handling of vsync (not worth typing out here, but you can research it for a better understanding.)

- terrain lod and ai traffic are the biggest factors in main thread performance, and to a lesser extent, airport traffic (service/fuel trucks.) terrain lod of 100 is the minimum i find acceptable in terms of graphics, because the autogen draw distance and ortho lod falls too far below 100. i can often run terrain lod at 200, but it does result in much more frequent drops below 40 fps at bigger airports, especially with the fenix a320. even terrain lod 100 is not even to maintain a 100% lock to 40 fps at all times at a few problematic airports like KDFW and KORD.

Edited by molleh
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1 hour ago, RJC68 said:

I am also originally from the UK so understand completely about your aircon dilemma lol I am lucky as my flight sim is in my basement which stays a cool 18 degrees even during our hot Canadian summers 🙂

Lovely!  I wish more UK houses had nice cool basements.  Perfect for flightsimming, and of course wine and beer storage within arms reach!  :smile:

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Call me Bob or Rob, I don't mind, but I prefer Rob.

I like to trick airline passengers into thinking I have my own swimming pool in my back yard by painting a large blue rectangle on my patio.

Intel 14900K in a Z790 motherboard with water cooling, RTX 4080, 32 GB 6000 CL30 DDR5 RAM, W11 and MSFS on Samsung 980 Pro NVME SSD's.  Core Isolation Off, Game Mode Off.

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On 7/11/2022 at 9:44 PM, micstatic said:

Exactly why I went with the 12700. Easier to keep cool also. 

i just bought the 12700F, it's 70.00 cheaper than the k version. The k versions are almost useless because of thermals and no headroom for overclocking. The 12900k is not worth the price premium over the 12700, And the 13900k is only gonna be 10 percent faster over the 12900k. All the leaks suggest the 13900k is 30 percent faster in multicore over the 12900k and will probably be 600-700 bucks. With that in mind the 13700 probably won't be over 5-10 percent faster over the 12700. Thermals decide if you are going to reach boost clocks. The 20 series already run hot, so the 30 series will probably be worse, But we will see soon.

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39 minutes ago, molleh said:

my performance findings with a 9900k, 3080 ti and a 4k 120hz gsync/freesync display (no overclocks on anything):

- hyperthreading off increases overall smoothness (more consistent frame pacing, less stuttering.)

- using nvidia control panel to set the msfs profile to 'fixed refresh' instead of gsync and selecting '20 fps' for the fps limit in msfs' graphics settings (i.e. 1/3rd vsync and 40 fps cap) results increases overall smoothness (more consistent frame pacing, less stuttering.) this doesn't make sense since selecting either '30 fps' or '20 fps' should disable gsync anyway since gsync isn't supported while using 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 refresh rate vsync settings, but i've done back to back testing repeatedly and it absolutely does make a fairly significant difference; settings need to be adjusted to maintain 40 fps though, as dropping below that causes the normal vsync uneven frame pacing. i've also been using 'prefer max performance' for the power setting, although i do need to go back and test it with 'normal' to see if it could save a bit on power consumption.

- i also use nvcp to set 'threaded optimization' and 'triple buffering' to off; contrary to popular belief, 'threaded optimization' isn't a catch-all term, but specifically refers to handling of vsync (not worth typing out here, but you can research it for a better understanding.)

- terrain lod and ai traffic are the biggest factors in main thread performance, and to a lesser extent, airport traffic (service/fuel trucks.) terrain lod of 100 is the minimum i find acceptable in terms of graphics, because the autogen draw distance and ortho lod falls too far below 100. i can often run terrain lod at 200, but it does result in much more frequent drops below 40 fps at bigger airports, especially with the fenix a320. even terrain lod 100 is not even to maintain a 100% lock to 40 fps at all times at a few problematic airports like KDFW and KORD.

I did a little testing last night and although I haven't tried turning off hyperthreading yet on my 12700K I did find that things were a lot smoother after disabling virtualization. 

With regards to your fps cap just so I understand, you set 20fps in sim and then lock 40fps externally presumably with NCP?


 

Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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