Kodiak vs Caravan

[sd_flyer 6,042]

15 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I think there's this perception by some that because the Kodiak is so unstable in the sim, that it's more realistic... I don't think so.  It's certainly more challenging, but if it were this hard to get off the ground without crashing in real-life, we'd hear about it. 🙂

Here is what you need after lift off

and your problem with Kodiak stability will be solved 😉

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

53 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I think there's this perception by some that because the Kodiak is so unstable in the sim, that it's more realistic... I don't think so.  It's certainly more challenging, but if it were this hard to get off the ground without crashing in real-life, we'd hear about it. 🙂

On my very first flight, I ran out to the runway, gunned the throttles and ended up in the ditch, just as you described.  Once I found his channel and set the trim properly, it was pretty easy to get off the ground.  Didnt feel like threading a needle at all.   Set the rudder trim full right, and put in some significant nose down on the elevator trim and you shouldnt have any issues.  Both recommendations come straight from his tutorials and are standard operating procedures for flying this plane.

I might add, that I suspect that the reason you wouldn't hear about real world crashes, is that the physical feedback you'ld get from pulling back the yoke too early would give you an immediate sense that things aren't going well and the pilot's natural reaction would then be to release the back pressure.  In a sim without force feedback and G-forces you dont get that and its probably easier to end up in the virtual ditch as a result.

Edited August 23, 2022 by VFXSimmer

[Virtual-Chris 682]

54 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

On my very first flight, I ran out to the runway, gunned the throttles and ended up in the ditch, just as you described.  Once I found his channel and set the trim properly, it was pretty easy to get off the ground.  Didnt feel like threading a needle at all.   Set the rudder trim full right, and put in some significant nose down on the elevator trim and you shouldnt have any issues.  Both recommendations come straight from his tutorials and are standard operating procedures for flying this plane.

I might add, that I suspect that the reason you wouldn't hear about real world crashes, is that the physical feedback you'ld get from pulling back the yoke too early would give you an immediate sense that things aren't going well and the pilot's natural reaction would then be to release the back pressure.  In a sim without force feedback and G-forces you dont get that and its probably easier to end up in the virtual ditch as a result.

You may have missed the part that I made dozens of uneventful flights in the Kodiak before loading it up. In fact, I was starting to wonder what everyone was complaining about.  However, when it's loaded it becomes a completely different beast. I now think any comments about flight characteristics of this plane without the context of the load it's carrying, are meaningless.

I have absolutely zero issues with the plane with just a copilot and myself.

Also, I don't think rudder trim full right is correct... is it?  I don't think I've seen that on Ryan's channel. That sounds awfully extreme.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

12 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

You may have missed the part that I made dozens of uneventful flights in the Kodiak before loading it up. In fact, I was starting to wonder what everyone was complaining about.  However, when it's loaded it becomes a completely different beast. I now think any comments about flight characteristics of this plane without the context of the load it's carrying, are meaningless.

I have absolutely zero issues with the plane with just a copilot and myself.

Also, I don't think rudder trim full right is correct... is it?  I don't think I've seen that on Ryan's channel. That sounds awfully extreme.

Did you adjust your elevator trim to account for your new CG?   

And "full" right is a bit more than missionary bush pilot puts in, I've also moved it 2/3 like he suggests and still works fine.  I had seen full right in some other instructional videos for the Kodiak and I was doing it just out of simplicity.  You back off the trim shortly after take off anyway.  Even with a lot of trim, you are still dancing on the pedals a bit - but again, not unlike the real thing by his accounts.

[Bobsk8 12,722]

23 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

You may have missed the part that I made dozens of uneventful flights in the Kodiak before loading it up. In fact, I was starting to wonder what everyone was complaining about.  However, when it's loaded it becomes a completely different beast. I now think any comments about flight characteristics of this plane without the context of the load it's carrying, are meaningless.

I have absolutely zero issues with the plane with just a copilot and myself.

Also, I don't think rudder trim full right is correct... is it?  I don't think I've seen that on Ryan's channel. That sounds awfully extreme.

I haven't flown the Kodiak in quite awhile, but when I did, I always loaded it up with passengers (5) and and the back two rows with freight.  Never had a problem on takeoff or landing.  If I recall, I used about 5 clicks of right rudder. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bobsk8

[Mace 1,926]

55 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

You may have missed the part that I made dozens of uneventful flights in the Kodiak before loading it up. In fact, I was starting to wonder what everyone was complaining about.  However, when it's loaded it becomes a completely different beast. I now think any comments about flight characteristics of this plane without the context of the load it's carrying, are meaningless.

I have absolutely zero issues with the plane with just a copilot and myself.

Also, I don't think rudder trim full right is correct... is it?  I don't think I've seen that on Ryan's channel. That sounds awfully extreme.

On the PC-6, which is also a larger single engine turboprop (PT-6 as well), you're supposed to take off with almost full right rudder trim.  On the PC-6 there is actually a trim gauge with the takeoff trim far to the right in green, to help you remember.  Also, there is a big sticker on the glareshield about this, so...my point is, it must be very important for these big torque PT-6 single turboprops to right trim on takeoff...whether it's Kodiak or PC-6 or something else.

[Cpt_Piett 4,645]

Does anyone have any idea what the "chip detector" on the annunciator panel means? I did a quick google search but it did not leave me any wiser. I did land, shut down and then restart the engines but the thing is still there... Should I be worried? I'm scheduled to go up to Friday Harbour to attend a wedding...

[Virtual-Chris 682]

So I watched two videos just now that use completely different take off trims...

This guy has 4 passengers and some boxes in the rear. Uses no elevator trim (wheel pointing straight up) and max right rudder trim LOL. He manages to get off the ground but it doesn't look very good. (Skip to 17:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTM9tZQAGM

Clumsy, has a bunch of cargo in the back, and he opts for about 10-oclock rudder trim, and just past the hash mark for right rudder trim.  His takeoff is smoother, although he's pleasantly surprised his take off isn't a mess (not a great endorsement IMHO). (skip to 16:50)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0a9wLu30XE

It makes absolutely no sense to me that both of these take off configurations work, yet mine which was very similar to Clumsy, failed.

[Bobsk8 12,722]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Does anyone have any idea what the "chip detector" on the annunciator panel means? I did a quick google search but it did not leave me any wiser. I did land, shut down and then restart the engines but the thing is still there... Should I be worried? I'm scheduled to go up to Friday Harbour to attend a wedding...

It just means that little parts of the metal in your engine are breaking off  and are now  floating around in your oil.....

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Uses no elevator trim (wheel pointing straight up) and max right rudder trim LOL.

Max right rudder trim would be correct in a real Kodiak - but because of how ground handling is done in MSFS, full right trim is going to exaggerate the unrealistic transition from ground roll to flight.  Personally I tend to go with more like 25% right rudder rather than full, even though full is technically correct.  You can of course just take-off with no rudder trim, your just going to need more right rudder.

ALSO - the FM whining would be huge if they were able to correctly implement the real aircrafts need for full right trim on take-off.  

I suspect the streamer in the video was using a real life POH for rudder trim, no idea why they ignored elevator trim.

As far as Vr is concerned.  The Kodiak is close to the book table but I tend to add about 5 knots with the lighter loads.  Note that Vr ramps up from 52/53 knots pretty rapidly, eventually rotating at close to 65 knots as the load goes up. 

The other thing you really have to watch is Torque.  This a 750 HP aircraft and you cannot just jam the throttle forward and go for it. For example on a hot 35 degrees Celsius day and a density altitude of 7000' your maximum allowable torque on take-off is only 1140 ft-lb nowhere near the 1740 you will get at full throttle.

There is a freeware mod that lets you add the performance tables to the cockpit as placards.

https://flightsim.to/file/27220/quest-kodiak-performance-tables

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[Bert Pieke 7,585]

3 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

It makes absolutely no sense to me that both of these take off configurations work, yet mine which was very similar to Clumsy, failed.

There has been an update to the Kodiak at one point, and the trim requirement was reduced.. maybe the videos were taken at different points in time.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

Update:

I think I found one cause for my frustration yesterday... and that is, if you load into the sim with the airplane engine running at the end of the runway, the elevator trim is already set to the 10-o'clock position. When you start it cold and dark, the elevator trim is not set (12-o'clock). Since I had been doing all my test flights (for mods and tweaks for FPS) over the last two weeks from the end of the runway I was under the false assumption the trim wheel defaulted to the 10-o'clock position all the time. When I started cold and dark for my NeoFly mission, I don't think I  checked it, and ran into issues. However, I could not replicate my crash today, with one passenger and 112lbs of cargo even with no elevator trim set, I was able to take off no problem, so maybe I made other mistakes?  I'm not sure. I'm going to write it off as a one-time issue.

Tonight I tried various loads and trim settings. Here's what I found...

- Heavily loaded, with the weight bias to the aft of the aircraft, requires elevator trim at about 9-10 o'clock. The more aft your load is, the more forward that indicator should be pointing. I have no idea how this pilot takes off loaded with no elevator trim.  It makes no sense. Ugh.

- Lightly loaded or a properly centered load enables you to use less elevator trim, it's more forgiving and you can probably use anything from 10-o'clock (as I've been doing with all my test flights) to no trim (straight up 12-o'clock).

- Rudder trim has different effects on the aircraft during different phases that I've observed...

1. At the beginning of your take off roll, you may still have to add rudder with the pedal to keep going straight
2. As the aircraft picks up speed, the rudder trim seems to take effect with the airflow - and depending on how much rudder trim you dialled in, you may still have to have some right rudder pedal, or you may be able to ease off the pedals (ideal) or may have too much trim and need some left rudder pedal to keep it going straight down the runway.
3. As the Kodiak gets airborne, I guess ground effects give way to flight model (?) and this is where large deviations in trim can be deadly - I found if you apply full right rudder trim, it's a recipe for disaster unless maybe you're super quick on the pedals - I dunno? Similarly, if you dial in too little rudder trim, you will be fighting the plane with the pedals as it gets airborne and may also crash.  
4. As you get up to speed (flaps up) you need to undo some of the rudder trim to keep it coordinated
   
   The best take-off setting for me seems to be around the area just right of the hash mark on the G1000 display... and this seems to be independent of load.  It means I only need light pedal work as the plane gets airborne.
   
   A comment from the developer on the official forum says that they are likely going to increase the necessary rudder trim as it currently has unrealistic authority or something.

Anyway, I guess it was just me, and not the aircraft, although this aircraft is very unforgiving which I have to believe is partly due to the sim or the way it's implemented because you don't get the impression from watching the real Kodiak on YT, that it's like trying to thread a needle to get the takeoff configuration correct.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[sd_flyer 6,042]

Here is some interesting facts about Caravan (g1000 version)

 

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

10 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

 

I think I found one cause for my frustration yesterday... and that is, if you load into the sim with the airplane engine running at the end of the runway, the elevator trim is already set to the 10-o'clock position. When you start it cold and dark, the elevator trim is not set (12-o'clock).

 

Default behaviour for the sim is to set everything to either off or neutral for cold and dark.

Default behaviour when spawning on the runway is to set trim, flaps etc to whatever the take-off configuration is in the config files for that aircraft.

I suspect you will probably also find the Kodiak has the flaps set for take-off when spawning on the runway but flaps raised when spawning cold and dark. Starting cold and dark and trying to take-off with no flaps and trim neutral will likely be an issue.

NOTE: whilst this is the default behaviour for most aircraft there are exceptions, planes like the JF Piper Warrior II and Arrows are state saving for some controls and will remember the last position you left them in. 

[Virtual-Chris 682]

18 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Here is some interesting facts about Caravan (g1000 version)

 

If someone makes a Caravan that's more functional than the one in the sim, I would buy it. I love the Caravan ergonomics and view.