Airbus or Boeing...

[birdguy 3,943]

A friend recently retired as an American Airlines B787 Pilot.

Our families had lunch when they passed through Roswell a few weeks ago.  I asked if he preferred the Boeing or the Airbus.  He said he prefered the Boeing because the Boeng yoke had feed-back when you moved it and the Airbus side stick did not.  I guess that's a matter of personal preference.  

Here is an excellent article on the differences between the two aircraft.

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-boeing-aircraft-technical-differences/

Noel

 

[scott967 62]

Well, I guess those 737 MAX yokes did have feedback, but how is it correlated to stab trim?  Two things working on the same characteristic.

 

scott s.

.

 

 

[martin-w 3,235]

8 hours ago, birdguy said:

  He said he prefered the Boeing because the Boeng yoke had feed-back when you moved it and the Airbus side stick did not.  

Noel

 

 

But had he ever flown an Airbus? Or was he just guessing he wouldn't like it.

There are countless Airbus pilots who seem to get along just fine.

This could start a major Bus V Boeing forum battle. 😁

Edited August 10, 2022 by martin-w

[C2615 319]

In normal flight envelop, both Boeing and Bus use spring load and damper to provide "feed-back" to pilot , AFAIK 737 did have some hydraulic device (elevator feeling computer) to provide heavier elevator feel as airspeed go up, not sure if it's on 777/787, but 777/787 have artificial feeling harden when approaching normal envelop limit, while buses just "cut out" the input "electronically".

Yeah, maybe chunky Yoke and C*U control law did better job than "JOYstick"  to trick pilot that they have actual feed back😜

If you ask me, I might prefer C*U law side stick on BCS(A220) (Haven't fly it on real or LD sim yet though...just imaging)

Edited August 10, 2022 by C2615

[Antipodeslonghaul 78]

Purely from a passenger's vantage point. I haven't enjoyed my 787 flights because I don't like the window shades. Also the seats felt uncomfortable, but I know of course that's an airline configuration thing, and not the plane's fault. On the other hand every 777 and 747 flight I've ever been on, including the 747-8 have been great! For some reason I just don't like the 787 that much and prefer the A350, also from the looks. I guess for a pilot the traditional control coulumn is much nicer, more dignified. On the other hand the tray table and extra space in front of you on the airbus might be nice too. As a passenger I also hated the A340-600 with the downstairs bathrooms and seemed always overcrowded. But generally on full economy flights, I guess I've liked 2-4-2 configurations the best. So the good old A330's a while back when I took them on Northwest and Lufthansa between USA and Europe quite a few times were good, even when pretty crowded in economy. Considering all equations the Airbus Boeing rivalry is still neck and neck in my opinion.

[jon b 2,047]

Just briefly.. there’s one thing the 787 wins every time on above every other aircraft and that’s the cabin environment.

Fresh air scooped from outside and not engine bleed, humidified and filtered to remove odour , and pressurised to just 6,000ft cabin altitude at cruise.

It may not sound a lot but it makes a massive difference in fatigue levels.

I’m told the 787 is to be Boeing’s first and last electric pressurisation system as it’s too costly to make.

[Antipodeslonghaul 78]

42 minutes ago, jon b said:

Just briefly.. there’s one thing the 787 wins every time on above every other aircraft and that’s the cabin environment.

Fresh air scooped from outside and not engine bleed, humidified and filtered to remove odour , and pressurised to just 6,000ft cabin altitude at cruise.

It may not sound a lot but it makes a massive difference in fatigue levels.

I’m told the 787 is to be Boeing’s first and last electric pressurisation system as it’s too costly to make.

I had a bit of a theory once on why I never managed to get much sleep on my 787 flights, because I may have been lacking just that hint of hypoxia that may have knocked me out on other flights. But in seriousness, I've seen a fellow passenger on the floor, I think it was on a very crowded A340 flight, very ill, being given oxygen. I don't know what she may have already been suffering from, but imagining the sensation of suffocation and probably panic. What a blessing to just get through a flight feeling healthy and happy and then you finally walk out of the terminal into the fresh air. Who cares if you didn't sleep and are tired. I suppose anything to make the cabin environment as close to that being outside sensation is definitely a good thing.

[birdguy 3,943]

7 hours ago, martin-w said:

But had he ever flown an Airbus?

Yes, he said he did fly airbuses.  I would imagine any airline pilot who flew for an airline that had both did fly both of them.

My preference for P3D is the Saitek stick.  My CH yoke is gathering dust in the closet.

Of the few types of aircraft I have flown I still hold dear the one I learned to fly in.  The Luscombe 8E and it had a stick.

Noel

Edited August 10, 2022 by birdguy

[birdguy 3,943]

7 hours ago, martin-w said:

This could start a major Bus V Boeing forum battle.

It shouldn't Martin.  Personal preferences for whatever reason doesn't make one product better than another.

My favorite icecream flavor is butter pecan.  My wife's is chocolate chip mint.  That doesn't make one better than the other.

In my younger days the Chevy - Ford wars raged.  That didn't make one better than the other.  They were debating personal preferences in the debates that proved nothing.

Noel

Edited August 10, 2022 by birdguy

[G550flyer 1,013]

Greetings All,

I will give a pilot's perspective since I fully understand what the pilot is saying in the original post. Now, I have never flown a scarebus, I mean Airbus so don't throw tomatoes at me just yet. I do fully understand the theories of both concepts of traditional and fly by wire flight. I will dig in a little to paint the picture of why a conventional based pilot would prefer the Boeing or other traditional based aircraft. A lot has to do with your experience base. If you flew either style for a good part of your experience, you may be partial because it's what you are used to. Lets point out some conventional things that a conventional pilot would miss in a fly by wire aircraft like the Airbus.

In none fly by wire aircraft, the yoke and throttles give you a great bit of information on what the jet is doing. Yoke movement, yoke forces and throttle movement tells you a lot. These items along with other sensory cues will tell you what the jet is doing without even looking at flight annunciation. If I have a hand resting on the yoke and the other resting on the throttles, I know exactly what the autopilot is doing. In fact, as an instructor, with my hand resting on the yoke and the other at the base of the quadrant against the throttles, I can tell exactly what the student is doing. I don't even have to look inside. I can give immediate feedback based on what I feel on the yoke and throttles for our current situation. The yoke and throttles will also confirm what I am expecting the jet to do. Yoke moving forward during descents as the throttles go to idle. Throttle movement during speed and power selection. Throttles sitting at idle as you level off from a descent is a great sign that the AT or PF is not keeping up with the aircraft. So may times I've seen the throttles go way forward because the PF left the boards out after level off from a descent. You have to watch those new peeps and minimize your heads down moments and stay ahead. Now lets talk about yoke feedback.

For the traditional pilot, yoke feedback is everything. You will know if you are getting fast or slow from the yoke. In the low speed regime, like approach and landing, for every 5 knots of speed change, you are looking at a degree of pitch change. This is also evident by the yoke forces encountered during speed changes requiring constant trimming. Yoke position along with forces and other cues will paint a good picture of where you are in the flight regime. Take the F14 vs F16 for example. In the 14, I can be behind a target and slowing bringing the nose around to squirt off some rounds. Stick position and feedback along with some buffet and vapor off the wings in my peripheral vision tells me I'm around 18 AOA and don't want to pull any harder. I want to keep what I have, be patient and let that nose slowly come around. If I pull any harder, it will depart and roll out and I lose the opportunity and advantage. Hopefully I can get it under control without getting in a spin or being jumped. In that case, the feedback and sensory data is vital. Now in the F16, I pull the stick and it barely moves, but no matter how hard I pull, the FBW limits it to max load. Early on, the F16 stick didn't move at all, it was pressure sensed. Either way, I don't have to worry about the flight regime because the FBW will always keep me in it. Now, lets look at some things a guy like me finds weird in the Airbus.

Never having to trim is just weird to me. Point the nose and the jets just keeps it there. It's almost like not flying lol. The DC10(CWS) and Gulfstreams(TCS) have a similar feature. Once you engage it, it will maintain the pitch and bank that you set. I only used it in the DC10 while circling in ALT hold. I can keep my eyes outside, bank the aircraft while the AP kept the altitude. We know the designers find it weird as well because the systems have to make an adjustment during landing. Naturally, As you lose the 5 knots crossing the threshold, you get that 1 degree pitch change needing more back pressure. As you get into ground effect, the nose tends to drop, requiring more back pressure. As you maintain target flare pitch, the aircraft slows a little requiring back pressure. The auto trim feature would throw this all off. To compensate, FBW systems start adding nose down trim at a specified point requiring back pressure on the controls to counter. This effect makes the landing very conventional. Another weird feature for me is that the throttles stays in a detent. You lose that confirmation of speed control. But, if you move to an Airbus, it's a easy transition. By design, it's an easier aircraft to fly and it keeps you out of trouble. You just have to reply on instruments and annunciation to stay on top of what's going on. Back in the day, one of my friends said the Airbus was all about, what is it doing now? Once you adjust to the change in mentality, it's a easy deal. If I grew up on the Airbus, I'm sure I would be partial to it as well.

In all there is no big deal in the Airbus vs Boeing fight from a pilots viewpoint. It all comes down to politics and an airlines bottom line. This is why you will see most major airlines have a mixed fleet. It's all about which aircraft will meet my bottom line at the time. If the Airbus has better performance for a route, it's Airbus. If it's Boeing, then they roll with Boeing. Which ever aircraft fits their operations and saves on cost will get selected.

Rick.   

[birdguy 3,943]

For those who have flown both the Airbus and the Boeing which left seat would you rather be in during and emergency?

Noel

[Gnacino 48]

Case and point that GG550 Flyer makes,  The A330 AirFrance that went down in the Atlantic off of S America because it stalled and the captain did not know that the PF, the FO was making it stall.

Gnacino

[martin-w 3,235]

3 hours ago, Gnacino said:

Case and point that GG550 Flyer makes,  The A330 AirFrance that went down in the Atlantic off of S America because it stalled and the captain did not know that the PF, the FO was making it stall.

Gnacino

 

Huh... how, when the flight envelope protection would have prevented a stall?

You can literally pull the thrust back to idle and the stick full back and it will go into Alpha Floor (in normal law) and prevent the stall.

Edited August 10, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,235]

7 hours ago, birdguy said:

It shouldn't Martin.  Personal preferences for whatever reason doesn't make one product better than another.

 

Shouldn't, but has many times in the past. 

[Orlaam 306]

I just had wonderful trip to Ireland from Phoenix, AZ.  The 737 to Dallas was fine.  Cramped, but all smaller jets are cramped IMO.  The 787 was not fun.  Cramped as the 737 and horrible tinted windows that weren't always in my control.  I took an A321 back to Phoenix.  That was the whiniest jet on the ground.  Horrible sounds for a passenger.  As a pilot I would prefer the yoke.  It's nice having two-hand flying capabilities and a real control column in front of you.  The joystick things seems like an inconvenience. I know a lot of pilots prefer it though, since you have a table and more room, lol.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Orlaam