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Mace

I think FSX should have navigation data updates ...

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In a round-a-bout...sort-a-off topic way, that's the point Bill's trying to make. He's taking the next logical step.We now have to seperate discussions here that eventually do need to be tied in together with the sim.One, are the end user nav units (GPS's, FMC's, etc.), the other, is getting that 1:1 ratio in the sim as bill is talking about.In all actuality it should ultimatly work as Bill is describing.


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

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Regg,That's also a really great way of describing it. Good job, man!:-)


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

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Jeppesen must have agreements with other countries that allow it e publish this information commercially.Yes - $There is some reciprocity, but there are also limits on data. Some countries keep much data from Jeppsen.My company owns 2 CL-604 and 2 G-200 bizjets. Most of these aircraft have been to China. There are many airports in China which are not in the FMS database of those jets. Their DB is really close to the FS database as far as Chinese airports are in the system.When they have to fly to an airport not in their DB, they have to request and wait for a Chinese military navigator onboard who works with the pilots. He also removes all records, paper and electronic, from the aircraft after it returns to an authorized airport. This normally takes 45-60 days advance clearance to arrange.

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This is the data which FS needs for one approach for one airport - not even anything on the NDB itself, the airport or runways. And this is one of the most simplistic:Can someone pull an approach for one of the FMS navdata updates and display it as a comparison?

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Let me go back to the main topic.Optional updates would be nice.I worry about having to update payware and freeware scenery everytime there is an update. In the real world I can go out to the end of the runway and paint new numbers. A lot more is involved in FS.Jim Vile has been doing NAVDATA updates for some major airports in FS2004 for about 2 1/2 years. He has already put out updates for 14 airports in FSX.Some payware developers are now catching on that the visual scenery and the NAVDATA airspace are not separate items in FS. The runway is only in one place and has both visual and NAVDATA implications.There are some new tools under development for FSX which may make updating approaches easier in FSX.But the key element is that FS is designed from the concept stage as a 'slice of time' world.It is not designed to be updated on such a massive scale.I'm working on updates for EGCC, PANC, and CHYZ for the runway designator changes.But the files holding NAVDATA also hold the parking data.

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Regg,I think he was actually concerned more about navigating/airspace then updating. He just used MS as the source example, then we all started drilling down to further issues.


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

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Yes - but the key thing is people need to understand that in the current design of FS - airspace navigation is part of the scenery.Airspace and scenery are not separate elements - but an integrated whole.A lot, maybe most of, the AI, ATC, Flight Planning, etc - issues are fundamentally part of the way FS is designed as an integrated application - not as separate addon modules.One last point - NAVDATA updates for real world FMS and GPS units are easy because updates was a primary design goal of the systems. The FS specific devices are also designed to be easily updatable.Of the approx 90MB of FSX data - maybe less than 1% would be updated each cycle. However, the files are not designed and the program is not built for things like runway designators to be replace easily.Some APX files hold over 300 airports. To update one waypoint, one NDB, one airport designator change - the entire file needs to be replaced.

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That is correct, it can also be sometimes a which came first, the chicken or the egg story, depending on the location.


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

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>Hehe, well, yeah, what you're saying is correct. I should>have been more clear on that point, But people aren't going to>understand that though. >:) Well, I think most users can understand that if you have updated navdata for a new runway at KATL, and the scenery itself is not ALSO updated in FS to show the new runway...then you would have a disconnect between what the sim's nav data shows, and what is actually in the sim.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian


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That's not what I meant by that...LOL.


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

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10th Gen Intel Core i9 10900KF (10-Core, 20MB Cache, 3.7GHz to 5.3GHz w/Thermal Velocity Boost) | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 24GB GDDR6X | 128GB Dual Channel DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz | 2TB M.2 PCIe SSD (Boot) + 2TB 7200RPM SATA 6Gb/s (Storage) | Lunar Light chassis with High-Performance CPU/GPU Liquid Cooling and 1000W Power Supply

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Well, one could update most of the data I suppose, but then you still have the problem of ATC not having phrases for the new stuff.The main update problem I think is not having an exclusion mechanism, except deleteAllApproaches, which by itself is sort of a sledgehammer. Adding or moving waypoints shouldn't be a problem. Navaids are a bigger problem, since there are visual scenery objects for them which must be accounted for. Then there are things like markers which never were easy to modify/replace.scott s..

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It really depends on what you want to do and what you're flying also.3rd party non SDK aircaft have their navdata stored in a seperate directory with their own d-base (not pulling from MS), so the MS "physical-virtual" world doesn't really matter--as much, unless there's been a physical change in the scenery somewhere (i.e. a new RWY, etc) where that data may not correspond with what the user sees upon arrival or departure for that matter. It would be more of a irratant then anything else.See, this is the whole thing. It seems like about of half of you use some sort of AI and/or default (even add-on) AI-ATC services and the other half of us fly in the more realistic online environment where only physical scenery changes effect us. Me for example, will have very little problems with navdata-for airspace navigation only updates, versus the other half who would be greatly impacted because their updates would be also tied into the FS physical world more so then mine.That's kind of a lousy way of trying to convey my thoughts I know, but hopefully you guys can pick out what I'm trying to say. :-)What Bill and Reggie, and even ACES are saying is that, in a perfect world, we'd have both the sim and the air data in sync all the time because as time goes by, the gap between regular updates and the sim world would get larger even for my type of flying.Even at that there could be huge drawbacks with add-on scenery if the developer didn't update their sceneries also to reflect new data if the sim world for that area was adjusted by the new updated data.I'd like to think though, that option would still be better....hehe


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

https://discord.io/MaxDutyDay

10th Gen Intel Core i9 10900KF (10-Core, 20MB Cache, 3.7GHz to 5.3GHz w/Thermal Velocity Boost) | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 24GB GDDR6X | 128GB Dual Channel DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz | 2TB M.2 PCIe SSD (Boot) + 2TB 7200RPM SATA 6Gb/s (Storage) | Lunar Light chassis with High-Performance CPU/GPU Liquid Cooling and 1000W Power Supply

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>I doubt there are any legal issues with any countries,>especially since Jepps, if memory serves me correct, actually>carto's the info from the start, so in reality, if anything,>it's Jepps to begin with.>No it isn't Jeppersen's. Individual countries produce the underlying data and that remains their property. They may licence Jeppersen to use it, when the copyright in the charts Jeppersen produces is obviously Jeppersen's but that still doesn't give them any rights to the data.Yurning to FS, it's obviously practical to create a set of data for each new release of FS. It's a sizeable one-off effort that Microsoftmust felt wa justified and was prepared to pay for. I seriously doubt whther Microsoft would feel in worthwhile to bother with frequent updates, even if Jeppersen were prepared to supply the data. Even if it was profitable I guess that in absolute terms the profits would be small and that the resources invovled could be more profitably used elsewhere.

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I think that's a discussion for another day. I feel however that since they are obviousley authorized to re-sell that data which they posess and produce in any format, the same would apply for our purposes as they have stated to me on the phone numerous times, despite my more or less toungue in cheech reply. I figured you'd get the real meaning, sorry about that, I forgot where I was posting at for a minute...rofl. We all know there's details in the devil, but that wouldn't impact our community, IMO.


Jeff D. Nielsen (KMCI)

https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

https://discord.io/MaxDutyDay

10th Gen Intel Core i9 10900KF (10-Core, 20MB Cache, 3.7GHz to 5.3GHz w/Thermal Velocity Boost) | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 24GB GDDR6X | 128GB Dual Channel DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz | 2TB M.2 PCIe SSD (Boot) + 2TB 7200RPM SATA 6Gb/s (Storage) | Lunar Light chassis with High-Performance CPU/GPU Liquid Cooling and 1000W Power Supply

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Guest YukonPete

Very stupid idea!!! We already have Navdata if you want the updates. I don't really care for it. My Lvl-d 767 runs fine on default navdata.

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