iFly 737 MAX coming to MSFS

[micstatic 4,319]

2 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

The IFly 737 is not really a study level aircraft, so there will be room for PMDGs version. I'd say it's probably gonna be a bit like on P3D when there was already the Aerosoft A320 and then came FSL with their own study level A320, which became a huge success.

I don't think there is any data whatsoever to make this claim.  It seems you probably have never flown their 737?

[regis9 4,013]

Part of iFly’s popularity issue has always been that they choose airliners that PMDG also does, which has them fighting an uphill battle against PMDG’s quality and their marketing machine from the start.  I’ve always wondered how they would do with an aircraft that is not on PMDG’s radar.

Having said that, my recollection is that I bought the iFly 737, enjoyed flying it, but when PMDG released the NGX not too long after iFly released their 737, it was just more refined, felt like more of a complete package so I stuck with the NGX for my 737 flying.  

It’s been many years so I’d be hard pressed to remember many specifics, but I think it was things like ease of setting weights and fuel loads (was iFly an external program?), I seem to recall adding liveries required you to set parameters for things like engine thrust ratings, MCP panel type etc whereas PMDG’s verified repaints took care of all of that.

All in all since the NGX was a more complete package/experience in my mind I stuck with it, but if it had never come along I would have quite happily kept using the iFly 737.  When flying it, it was quite impressive and worked well.

So I’m comfortable with the iFly pedigree and am happy they’re bringing an aircraft to MSFS we otherwise wouldn’t see for a long time if ever.

[jrw4 624]

20 minutes ago, psolk said:

Where do you come up with $1M dollars to develop an FS-Add-on?

Again, my memory fails me sometimes, but I do recall that Cpt. Randazzo mentioned something like 6,000 hours for the 737-700, so I figured that a number like $150/hr fully loaded with overheads, fringes, etc., for highly skilled technical personnel (along with an estimate for long-term free tech support to users) brought me very close to that number. What I don't know is how much a MAX model could depend on 737ng development, so maybe that number is somewhat high. If others have a better guess, please feel free to share, especially with regard to that per hour guesstimate.

Cheers.

[psolk 3,040]

9 minutes ago, jrw4 said:

Again, my memory fails me sometimes, but I do recall that Cpt. Randazzo mentioned something like 6,000 hours for the 737-700, so I figured that a number like $150/hr fully loaded with overheads, fringes, etc., for highly skilled technical personnel (along with an estimate for long-term free tech support to users) brought me very close to that number. What I don't know is how much a MAX model could depend on 737ng development, so maybe that number is somewhat high. If others have a better guess, please feel free to share, especially with regard to that per hour guesstimate.

Cheers.

So you think an FS add on developer is making the equivalent of a $312,000/yr full time package working 40 hrs/wk @150/hr?   Seriously?  No wonder my company has a hard time finding people for 180k/yr base salary positions LOL...   Either your numbers are a wee bit off or I'm in the wrong line of business...  Sign me up for 300k/yr coding for FS add-ons for 40 hours per week... 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by psolk

[longhaul747 71]

Really excited to hear about this.  I hope this means that the 737NG package from IFly will be coming to MSFS as well eventually!

I currently have the PMDG MSFS offerings and its an alright airplane but I don't much care for PMDG's arrogance and lack working with the community.  For example the community asked about a non winglet model for the NG which seems like a no brainer for a product on the scale and price of this size but PMDG just flat out won't do it.  They claim it would take months to do!

    

[abrams_tank 7,397]

13 minutes ago, jrw4 said:

Again, my memory fails me sometimes, but I do recall that Cpt. Randazzo mentioned something like 6,000 hours for the 737-700, so I figured that a number like $150/hr fully loaded with overheads, fringes, etc., for highly skilled technical personnel (along with an estimate for long-term free tech support to users) brought me very close to that number. What I don't know is how much a MAX model could depend on 737ng development, so maybe that number is somewhat high. If others have a better guess, please feel free to share, especially with regard to that per hour guesstimate.

Cheers.

Unless the MAX is much harder to code for than the NG, and unless P3D is that much cheaper to develop for than MSFS, I don't see why iFly couldn't do a comparable fidelity level MAX in MSFS, to what they have released for P3D.

From what I have seen, from an external point of view for MSFS so far, the time it took to port the Maddog, the BAe 146, and the PMDG 737 to MSFS was within reason, so I don't think developing for MSFS is that much more expensive than P3D.  

I'm pretty sure the time it will take iFly to port their MAX to MSFS would also be within their budget.  Remember, their MAX is going into beta testing for P3D pretty soon, so for MSFS, they just need to port their MAX code to MSFS.  And also consider that the "lab test rats" to advance the MSFS SDK to the point where it can support study level airliners were actually Leonardo, Just Flight, and PMDG. That is, Leonardo, Just Flight, and PMDG did all the hard work to ensure the MSFS SDK can support study level airliners, and now iFly can benefit from their hard work, so in theory, it should be easier for iFly to work with the MSFS SDK.

[abrams_tank 7,397]

8 minutes ago, longhaul747 said:

Really excited to hear about this.  I hope this means that the 737NG package from IFly will be coming to MSFS as well eventually!

I currently have the PMDG MSFS offerings and its an alright airplane but I don't much care for PMDG's arrogance and lack working with the community.  For example the community asked about a non winglet model for the NG which seems like a no brainer for a product on the scale and price of this size but PMDG just flat out won't do it.  They claim it would take months to do!

    

I would expect the rest of the iFly products to come to MSFS, after they release the MAX for MSFS.  I think the hardest part for a developer is their first release of a high fidelity airliner for MSFS. They have to learn the MSFS SDK, learn all its quirks, and write code to port their planes over to MSFS.  But after they release their first fidelity airliner for MSFS, the second one is probably much easier, because they can reuse the code they wrote before, and they have learned the MSFS SDK and its quirks.

The only issue is if a developer's products will directly compete against another, maybe that would affect their choice of releasing on a platform or not.  But in this case, I don't think iFly minds competing against PMDG's product line in MSFS, since they already compete against PMDG in P3D.

Edited August 22, 2022 by abrams_tank

[ianb2469 55]

This sounds great, I just hope/wish someone does a 737CL like the IXEG for XPlane! One day maybe!!

[Fiorentoni 4,219]

Well the Ifly has no failures and certain systems are rather basic (though you'll only notice when you dig into them and compare with PMDG), that sounds much like the Aerosoft QualityWings-level to me (well maybe with a much better support, but I'm talking about the aircraft). Proper failure modelling is necessary for "study level", whatever you think of that term. Missing failure modelling is also a pretty good indicator that most systems are just not well/deeply enough modeled to support that. Or can anyone of you say any top-notch ("study level") aircraft on any sim that had NO failures? I can't. Therefore in my book missing failures is a 100% indicator of a non-study-level aircraft, whatever subjective meaning that might have.
Now that doesn't mean it's bad or I won't buy it (e.g. I loved the Feelthere Embraer, even though it was far from study level) - it was only about the question if there is still room for PMDG to add something substantial that the IFly Max won't bring to the table. Again, this is no anti-IFly post, actually I'm sorry now for comparing them to Aerosoft, so let's say QualityWings instead for the sake of the discussion 🙂

Edited August 22, 2022 by Fiorentoni

[abrams_tank 7,397]

17 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

Well the Ifly has no failures and certain systems are rather basic (though you'll only notice when you dig into them and compare with PMDG), that sounds much like the Aerosoft QualityWings-level to me (well maybe with a much better support, but I'm talking about the aircraft). Proper failure modelling is necessary for "study level", whatever you think of that term. Missing failure modelling is also a pretty good indicator that most systems are just not well/deeply enough modeled to support that. Or can anyone of you say any top-notch ("study level") aircraft on any sim that had NO failures? I can't. Therefore in my book missing failures is a 100% indicator of a non-study-level aircraft, whatever subjective meaning that might have.
Now that doesn't mean it's bad or I won't buy it (e.g. I loved the Feelthere Embraer, even though it was far from study level) - it was only about the question if there is still room for PMDG to add something substantial that the IFly Max won't bring to the table. Again, this is no anti-IFly post, actually I'm sorry now for comparing them to Aerosoft, so let's say QualityWings instead for the sake of the discussion 🙂

This would be interesting to see what iFly would price their 737 NG (if they port their NG to MSFS), given that the PMDG 737 in MSFS is already quite cheap. The PMDG 737-600 is only $35 USD. The PMDG 737-700 went on sale for $52.50 USD for the 25th anniversary sale just last week.

I wonder how iFly would price their 737 NG, and even their 737 MAX for MSFS, given that the PMDG 737 is already at a reasonable price in MSFS, and the PMDG 737 is also very high fidelity as well in MSFS.

[jrw4 624]

1 hour ago, psolk said:

So you think an FS add on developer is making the equivalent of a $312,000/yr full time package working 40 hrs/wk @150/hr?

No. I'm assuming that much of the development work is being done either by contract workers or consultants, neither of which have any long-term job security nor company benefits like medical. In my line of work (STEM and its administration), consultants routinely were paid double their annual rate on an hourly basis, but I agree that the hourly rate looks mighty attractive, so sign me up, too. Unfortunately, no one seems very interested in my rusty skills at FORTRAN 66.

I just looked at the iFlySimSoft web page and there's nothing there about the MAX for any platform, but we should all wish them much luck. PMDG has stated its intention to produce a MAX variant, but has not released any details that I can recall. If I were in the process of creating a MAX variant, one real concern would be that as I got closer to releasing my product, PMDG would simultaneously start teasing MAX screen shots and the odd video or two. That and the occasional somewhat rambling forum post would probably put a serious ding in the market for an alternate vendor's add-on. If iFly can release that MAX next month that would be great. If it's this time next year, not so much. And yes, it's all about the money.

[MattNischan 3,778]

1 hour ago, psolk said:

So you think an FS add on developer is making the equivalent of a $312,000/yr full time package working 40 hrs/wk @150/hr?

I would almost guarantee that 6K hours is only the MSFS portion of the work and doesn't include all the costs for the tons of code that already existed (as we've mentioned, the NXi is over 10K hours at this point). If you estimate devs at $120K + 20% overhead per person (insurance, benefits, equipment), plus company and infrastructure fixed costs, the given estimate total is not very far (if at all) off, and maybe conservative.

[jrw4 624]

Thanks Matt. This is a very expensive undertaking, and thanks, too, for all the great work on the NXi. Simply amazing.

[psolk 3,040]

27 minutes ago, jrw4 said:

No. I'm assuming that much of the development work is being done either by contract workers or consultants, neither of which have any long-term job security nor company benefits like medical. In my line of work (STEM and its administration), consultants routinely were paid double their annual rate on an hourly basis, but I agree that the hourly rate looks mighty attractive, so sign me up, too. Unfortunately, no one seems very interested in my rusty skills at FORTRAN 66.

I just looked at the iFlySimSoft web page and there's nothing there about the MAX for any platform, but we should all wish them much luck. PMDG has stated its intention to produce a MAX variant, but has not released any details that I can recall. If I were in the process of creating a MAX variant, one real concern would be that as I got closer to releasing my product, PMDG would simultaneously start teasing MAX screen shots and the odd video or two. That and the occasional somewhat rambling forum post would probably put a serious ding in the market for an alternate vendor's add-on. If iFly can release that MAX next month that would be great. If it's this time next year, not so much. And yes, it's all about the money.

http://ifly.flight1.net/forums/ifly-737max-now-in-active-development_topic20346.html

It was announced in the Flight1 forums for P3D...

[Mike T 208]

4 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

The IFly 737 is not really a study level aircraft, so there will be room for PMDGs version. I'd say it's probably gonna be a bit like on P3D when there was already the Aerosoft A320 and then came FSL with their own study level A320, which became a huge success.

Can we add "study-level" to the "word not allowed" list? PLEASE?