MSFS flight model

[ha5mvo 251]

26 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Yawn... you seem to be always highly triggered when positive stuff is said about MSFS, especially about the Fenix/PMDG/Milviz aircrafts (gee I wonder why). Keep complaining tediously, and demanding for "data". 

By all means, keep running around going "vroom vroom" believing that THIS is how those planes fly and handle.

I have (tried) to explain this to you several times at length in the other threads. I have little hope that another time would be more successful. I, for example, have a hard time understanding the quantum physics, we all have to accept that there are personal limits to comprehension of complex circumstances... unless someone does not WANT to understand something 😉

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by ha5mvo

[MrBitstFlyer 3,873]

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

no faith that XP will advance flight simulation much over the next decade.  MSFS however, if they advance the flight model further, and fix the ground handling

If the flight model is the holy grail, XP is much closer than MSFS imho, but I wholeheartedly agree with you - if MSFS can advance the flight model and fix the ground handling MSFS will be hard to beat.

[lwt1971 7,348]

Just now, ha5mvo said:

I have (tried) to explain this to you several times at length in the other threads. I have little hope that another time would be more successful. I, for example, have a hard time understanding the quantum physics,

we all have to accept that there are personal limits to comprehension of complex circumstances... unless someone does not WANT to understand something 😉

 

You sure seem to be stuck in a rut with some agenda you desperately want to keep pushing here, especially about the Fenix/PMDG/Milviz aircrafts. A bunch of us here fly these birds in MSFS now and have flown them in previous sims, *and* understand what both the positives and shortcomings are in their current implementations in MSFS, *and* have come to the conclusion that on the whole they are a great overall experience. See, simple to understand no? Let alone complex circumstances, you seem to be not cluing into simple logic. But alas, you keep doing you 😉

[lwt1971 7,348]

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

I think MSFS will get there before XP will. Looking at how little XP progressed from XP 11 to XP 12, I have no faith that XP will advance flight simulation much over the next decade.  MSFS however, if they advance the flight model further, and fix the ground handling, which I don't think will take nearly as long as XP getting up to MSFS's level of graphics (plus the satellite/photogrammetry data, I don't know how XP will get that), MSFS will be much closer to the holy grail of flight simulation than XP will (given the hardware limitations over the next decade, of course).

100% agreed... once ground handling is properly fixed/reworked by Asobo, and also when devs like PMDG/Fenix/Milviz/A2A/etc start to put out second and third incarnations of their birds where they take advantage of new parameters/features in the FDE and also just refine their flight models as they get to the know the MSFS platform better, it's going to be much closer to ticking all boxes in flight simming.

I'm especially looking forward to (and curious) how A2A implements the flight model for their Commanche even prior to Asobo fixing the ground handling. Hopefully A2A takes advantage of the initial batch of fixes and parameters coming in SU10 for ground handling.

Edited September 8, 2022 by lwt1971

[WestAir 2,522]

I feel like A2A is going to knock it out of the park with the tweaking and fine tuning. PMDG doesn't really come off, to me, as an "edge of the envelope" developer and I'm not convinced they'd spend much time tweaking the precise brake pressure and speed curve at which the left main loses adhesion on a contaminated runway and begins to skid, but A2A? I can't wait to see how far they take advantage of every new parameter ASOBO throws their way.

Edited September 8, 2022 by WestAir
said runway twice

[Bobsk8 12,679]

6 minutes ago, WestAir said:

I feel like A2A is going to knock it out of the park with the tweaking and fine tuning. PMDG doesn't really come off, to me, as an "edge of the envelope" developer and I'm not convinced they'd spend much time tweaking the precise brake pressure and speed curve at which the left main loses adhesion on a contaminated runway and begins to skid, but A2A? I can't wait to see how far they take advantage of every new parameter ASOBO throws their way.

I wonder what year A2A will finally release something for MSFS? 

[espent 1,394]

If I was in the XPlane camp my biggest concern would be recruitment. Every day people leaves a hobby for a multitude of reasons, be it life situation, personal health, age or just getting bored and finding a new hobby. Without a constant refill of people the active user group will rapidly shrink. 
 

I have a big problem seeing how new users will choose XP before MSFS. It is nothing like the FSX days where all sims required a lot of tweaking and tuning, and whatever you did the vistas were mediocre at best. 
 

MSFS gives you a modern simulator out of the box that works more than good for a new user. 

[mikea76 184]

7 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I wonder what year A2A will finally release something for MSFS? 

Accuracy takes time.

[Bobsk8 12,679]

3 minutes ago, mikea76 said:

Accuracy takes time.

I had the A2A Comanche years ago in P3D, and while it was a nice aircraft to fly, I am enjoying flying the Milviz C 310 and the Kodiak just as much if not more. I seriously doubt if I will buy the Comanche again. 

 

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

Is it just certain planes, or is there a "new" bug where the rudder trim does not work right away while on the ground, hence I sometimes have to throttle back then the next time I throttle up the rudder trim is set. It seems to mostly affect default planes. I could max the trim out and nothing happens, then suddenly it kicks in after messing with the throttle. It seems like a conflict in their ground calculations.

I know I know, why use rudder trim at all on the ground, because I only have a joystick and my hand gets tired holding the twist, I suppose I should get pedals eventually maybe, it just seems awkward to have peddles under my desk (never had it before though).

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Alpine Scenery

[Bobsk8 12,679]

4 minutes ago, Alpine Scenery said:

Is it just certain planes, or is there a "new" bug where the rudder trim does not work right away while on the ground, hence I sometimes have to throttle back then the next time I throttle up the rudder trim is set. It seems to mostly affect default planes. I could max the trim out and nothing happens, then suddenly it kicks in after messing with the throttle. It seems like a conflict in their ground calculations.

I know I know, why use rudder trim at all on the ground, because I only have a joystick and my hand gets tired holding the twist, I suppose I should get pedals eventually maybe, it just seems awkward to have peddles under my desk (never had it before though).

 

I have never found any default plane in any sim in the last couple of decades that was worth spending more than an hour with. 

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

11 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I have never found any default plane in any sim in the last couple of decades that was worth spending more than an hour with. 

I hear you, but I like some of them in MSFS.

Well, the Longitude is pretty good for a default plane.
Also, the King Air isn't half bad, though I know the flight modeling is way off.
 
 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Alpine Scenery

[Krakin 5,748]

Listen, I don't care how passionate Austin and the folks at LR are, they are going up against competent people with access to a ton of resources. What took LR a decade to do can be accomplished in a lot less time if the resources are available. Let's be honest, guys, the leap from XP 11 to XP 12 looks about the same as Asobo doing 3 or 4 sim updates for free.

[robert young 2,897]

Just a few days after MSFS was released I posted a long piece, and many subsequent ones, about the basic flaws in the flight model. A large number of members here said I was wrong and that the "new" flight model algorithms in MSFS were so much better than FSX and P3d and that the multiple lift points, so-called, were going to solve all the problems in previous editions of flight simulator. I pointed out many of the items that are now being discussed, and also wrote to Asobo about what I felt was a pretty disastrous core flight modelling methodology. I also pointed out here that many of the useful parameters in FSX which, though far from perfect, aided FDE developers in ironing out some flaws, had been removed.

I got a lot of flack, bordering on abuse, from certain members here. More recently, as this thread demonstrates, sim and real pilots have now made their views known and a lot of them concur with my originally expressed opinion.

For me the key flaw is that many behaviours, especially in lighter aircraft, are grossly exaggerated, particularly regarding apparent inertia values which present as being far too low (whether or not the inertia values in the flight_model.cfg appear to be mathematically correct). This includes way too sensitive pitch control, bouncing of pitch behaviour up and down at the slightest input, exaggerated yaw on the ground and crosswinds having a ridiculously exaggerated effect at certain speeds on the ground.

I managed to iron out a lot of these things in my Turbo Bonanza mod, but was not entirely successful at fixing ground behaviour because of the baked in extreme crosswind reaction.

These flaws show up much more in lighter aircraft than heavier ones, although even airliners suffer way too sensitive rudder control on the ground, as can be seen in even the best of third party airliners. I hope that the proposed solutions discussed by Asobo start to address all these issues because I agree with many views in this thread that it is a shame a sim with such beautiful scenery and visually satisfying features still has many core flight behaviours that are way off.

I'm a bit mystified by the Asobo statement that the crosswind problems is a legacy from FSX because, while flawed, FSX did not in any way present the same kind of crosswind problems as that demonstrated in MSFS. There was certainly a lack of friction on the ground, but that is different from the almost uncontrollable weather vaning currently seen in ground handling with MSFS when negotiating high crosswinds.

Edited September 8, 2022 by robert young

[Krakin 5,748]

37 minutes ago, robert young said:

I'm a bit mystified by the Asobo statement that the crosswind problems is a legacy from FSX because, while flawed, FSX did not in any way present the same kind of crosswind problems as that demonstrated in MSFS.

Yeah they never said it was a problem in FSX that made it's way over to MSFS. They said it is a problem in MSFS because it is using an old technique from FSX. Just because it played nicely in FSX doesn't mean it will work in MSFS.

Btw, have you tried out the CFD tech yet? The Islander makes use of it and doesn't seem to suffer from the twitchy characteristics you mentioned.