It's not over until the fat lady sings! with X-Plane 12

[BobFS88 633]

1 minute ago, andy1252 said:

Have only tried a couple (Florida and all the GB) of the XP11 TE products but they have all worked fine so far. Might not need to buy replacements, just symlink to the existing versions.

They probably will discount any upgrade so you may not even pay full price for them when they finally come out specify for XP12

[MrBitstFlyer 3,836]

2 hours ago, MadDog said:

Thanks.  I contacted Laminar through their support page and they provided a refund within about 6 hours... very responsive!  Will be keeping tabs to see if the "fat lady" has any decent songs in her repertoire; but at this point, I just don't feel it's enough of an upgrade to justify holding on to it.

The lighting itself is a huge upgrade to XP-11!

[overspeed3 410]

Unfortunately, I can't use the "Fat lady" analogy in front of my Sigif Other, (Not that she actually fits that, ya know, category, and really can't carry a tune).  Although I am tempted many times watching a game.

 

[Mo45 32]

It is totally waste of money for this sim. And it is all over for me for X plane 12.

Very disappointed with the Laminar Research.

[XST 36]

To understand what is going on now in the market and specially with XP 12 we must to put feelings, old timer loyalty and heart brains aside. For LR and all other sims it’s a matter of business and strategy, and this whole thing can only be understood with a change of mind and point of view.

I’m software engineer, UL pilot, home cockpit builder. I develop my own home cockpits including the software for my instrument panels. I’m in touch with a lot of XP aircraft developers due this matter. And behind the scenes, in the backstage there is something happening believe it or not, you like it or not.

Lot of users are going to MSFS. Even lot of XP unconditional ones. Therefore, and this is a fact not a guess, lot of XP aircraft developers stopped developing for XP and moved to MSFS. It is difficult to ride two horses at once. And probably lot more will eventually do. The reason is very clear: just pure business. MSFS users are counted in millions while XP users are counted thousands.

So, aside of the developer feelings, loyalty and love… making much more money for the same effort makes lot of sense to them.

That speech about “XP is an engineering tool with the best model physics and we don’t care about eye candy” is now useless to solve this new puzzle. And I totally agree with that statement, but business-side is useless. No matter what with think, love or like… the numbers are talking.  

The real fact, and this info comes from aircraft developers, is that XP add-ons market is going downhill and it has nothing to do to what it was some time ago, just before MSFS came out. And sadly, this means that LR is suffering the same effect too. And it is happening, you like it or not.

That is the real reason why LR released this XP 12 early access beta prematurely.

I read comments saying that it is very stable compared to other betas of XP… of course it is. Because it is an XP 11 upgrade with additions, not a total rebuilt of the code. And I’m sure LR effort is huge, not saying they are just cleaning the face. The question is, are they rowing in the right direction?

We, users, can argue and fight each other stating the old timer loyalty slogan. But don’t forget that in the backstage this is just pure business. I don’t believe at all that LR don’t care about competing MSFS just because they have their niche of market. If you are an entrepreneur, you can understand that statement is absolutely wrong.

My loyalty to LR and XP also means to say no, when I have to say no. And now this XP 12 early access beta makes me feel that the way it will go is not the right one… so to me is a no. And if LR doesn’t change this approach, the only thing that will save XP (again) is that MS/Asobo will someday mess this up (again) and abandon (again) the project as they did with FSX.

Continuous denial of the truth will not help.

BTW: I’m not requesting a refund to be consistent with my own meaning of loyalty, and because I still have hope, but I totally understand those who did.

 

[abrams_tank 7,393]

15 minutes ago, XST said:

To understand what is going on now in the market and specially with XP 12 we must to put feelings, old timer loyalty and heart brains aside. For LR and all other sims it’s a matter of business and strategy, and this whole thing can only be understood with a change of mind and point of view.

I’m software engineer, UL pilot, home cockpit builder. I develop my own home cockpits including the software for my instrument panels. I’m in touch with a lot of XP aircraft developers due this matter. And behind the scenes, in the backstage there is something happening believe it or not, you like it or not.

Lot of users are going to MSFS. Even lot of XP unconditional ones. Therefore, and this is a fact not a guess, lot of XP aircraft developers stopped developing for XP and moved to MSFS. It is difficult to ride two horses at once. And probably lot more will eventually do. The reason is very clear: just pure business. MSFS users are counted in millions while XP users are counted thousands.

So, aside of the developer feelings, loyalty and love… making much more money for the same effort makes lot of sense to them.

That speech about “XP is an engineering tool with the best model physics and we don’t care about eye candy” is now useless to solve this new puzzle. And I totally agree with that statement, but business-side is useless. No matter what with think, love or like… the numbers are talking.  

The real fact, and this info comes from aircraft developers, is that XP add-ons market is going downhill and it has nothing to do to what it was some time ago, just before MSFS came out. And sadly, this means that LR is suffering the same effect too. And it is happening, you like it or not.

That is the real reason why LR released this XP 12 early access beta prematurely.

100% agree with you. It was a business decision by Austin to release XP 12 prematurely.  To be honest, if I were in Austin's shoes, I would make the exact same decision as him. The longer Austin waits, the higher the possibility that other 3rd party XP developers may move to the competition.  What Austin did was the most rational choice, from a business perspective. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by abrams_tank

[UKflyer 630]

18 minutes ago, XST said:

To understand what is going on now in the market and specially with XP 12 we must to put feelings, old timer loyalty and heart brains aside. For LR and all other sims it’s a matter of business and strategy, and this whole thing can only be understood with a change of mind and point of view.

I’m software engineer, UL pilot, home cockpit builder. I develop my own home cockpits including the software for my instrument panels. I’m in touch with a lot of XP aircraft developers due this matter. And behind the scenes, in the backstage there is something happening believe it or not, you like it or not.

Lot of users are going to MSFS. Even lot of XP unconditional ones. Therefore, and this is a fact not a guess, lot of XP aircraft developers stopped developing for XP and moved to MSFS. It is difficult to ride two horses at once. And probably lot more will eventually do. The reason is very clear: just pure business. MSFS users are counted in millions while XP users are counted thousands.

So, aside of the developer feelings, loyalty and love… making much more money for the same effort makes lot of sense to them.

That speech about “XP is an engineering tool with the best model physics and we don’t care about eye candy” is now useless to solve this new puzzle. And I totally agree with that statement, but business-side is useless. No matter what with think, love or like… the numbers are talking.  

The real fact, and this info comes from aircraft developers, is that XP add-ons market is going downhill and it has nothing to do to what it was some time ago, just before MSFS came out. And sadly, this means that LR is suffering the same effect too. And it is happening, you like it or not.

That is the real reason why LR released this XP 12 early access beta prematurely.

I read comments saying that it is very stable compared to other betas of XP… of course it is. Because it is an XP 11 upgrade with additions, not a total rebuilt of the code. And I’m sure LR effort is huge, not saying they are just cleaning the face. The question is, are they rowing in the right direction?

We, users, can argue and fight each other stating the old timer loyalty slogan. But don’t forget that in the backstage this is just pure business. I don’t believe at all that LR don’t care about competing MSFS just because they have their niche of market. If you are an entrepreneur, you can understand that statement is absolutely wrong.

My loyalty to LR and XP also means to say no, when I have to say no. And now this XP 12 early access beta makes me feel that the way it will go is not the right one… so to me is a no. And if LR doesn’t change this approach, the only thing that will save XP (again) is that MS/Asobo will someday mess this up (again) and abandon (again) the project as they did with FSX.

Continuous denial of the truth will not help.

BTW: I’m not requesting a refund to be consistent with my own meaning of loyalty, and because I still have hope, but I totally understand those who did.

 

Great post. To me XP12 was rushed out due to the dwindling numbers of XP users, hence a half developed product. Who would release a new sim with the same old scenery? Visuals have moved on to a whole new level and customers are expecting more. Having good 'physics' is no longer going to convince people to use XP as their chosen sim, or even some of the time with another product. Simming is partly an entertainment industry and LR needs to realise this.

[XST 36]

21 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

To be honest, if I were in Austin's shoes, I would make the exact same decision as him. The longer Austin waits, the higher the possibility that other 3rd party XP developers may move to the competition.  What Austin did was the most rational choice, from a business perspective. 

I understand and agree. Not sure what I would’ve done if I where in his shoes. Maybe the same thing.

I think the mistake was in a message that confused some (or a lot) of XP users. As much as I read forums lot of users expected something else. Me too. A good decision with a wrong message or explanation doesn’t help.

And I have also to say that Austin has a difficult puzzle to solve ahead with a lot of complicated decisions to take. Not easy at all.

This is why I don’t request a refund, because I understand the difficult way he is going through and there are my two cents of support, even not liking the results of the product.

No one has a magic ball to see what is the right way to go. In this stage there are several approaches: investing in the company and going to the next level, hire a new young manager with brand new fresh ideas, partnership with google. Who knows, not easy decision at all.

[XST 36]

13 minutes ago, UKflyer said:

Who would release a new sim with the same old scenery?

This is a good point, perhaps a key point.

If you buy a new car, when you sit in the driver seat you want to feel you are a new car. Easy and simple.

And yes! scenery matters. I know is not the most important feature when you are flying at 10000 feet. But people want it, just because its is possible these days and other sims have it.

Nowadays makes no sense to see Lego City when landing.

[mjrhealth 820]

I think the fat lady fell off the stage in a drunken stupor, and banged her head, not sure she will be singing again for a very long time. Must be disappointing for some here. I dont use any add on scenery never have never will, Cannot see the point and with xplane 12 even less of a reason. But many must come to indulge in the displeasure that xplane actually looks and perfomrs really well. Bit like the Utub streamer demoing beta 2 and complaining about the stutters, beta 2 did nothing but remove the option to pay from the installer, But he had to apologize it was him and his camera setting. Im not aloud to use a word here, why not il never know but there is a lot of it going around. Ig.

[mjrhealth 820]

41 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

It was a business decision by Austin to release XP 12 prematurely.

Its a beta, every one was demanding it. Its not a complete release, Laminar never said it was. And again, they put in it everything they promised. So anyone who fails to read the notes, im sorry its there doing not his if they are disappointed. Im still not sure what it is they are disappointed in. And the vast majortiy of users are enjoying it. There are always s few who must press there displeasure that will never change, Sad world we live in.

[Murmur 3,941]

1 hour ago, XST said:

MSFS users are counted in millions while XP users are counted thousands.

LOL. Numbers say it's going to be around 20% to 80% market share (Steam stats. Yeah I know MSFS can be bought outside Steam, but so can XP).

That's like 2 orders of magnitude different than your estimate.

So, if the rest of your reasoning is as reliable as the statement I quoted above... 😆

[Ianrivaldosmith 5,317]

59 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

Its a beta,

We know, you tell us multiple times per day to try and justify this release. 

There seems to be  few stubborn old timers in here who cant seem to face up to the truth of the matter. And then they type in riddles to try and confuse the layman. And the truth of the matter is what @XST has posted, @UKflyer has posted and what @abrams_tank has posted. @XST hit the nail bang on the head. 

 

[Ianrivaldosmith 5,317]

1 hour ago, mjrhealth said:

Im still not sure what it is they are disappointed in.

Try reading what people actually write then, and maybe then you'll see. 

 

1 hour ago, mjrhealth said:

And the vast majortiy of users are enjoying it. There are always s few who must press there displeasure that will never change, Sad world we live in.

Vast majority? Source? Press their displeasure? What do you want them to do, remain silent? Would that be better? Then it WOULD be a SAD world we lived in. Would be a bit like N.Korea. 

[XST 36]

18 minutes ago, Murmur said:

So, if the rest of your reasoning is as reliable as the statement I quoted above... 😆

Probably you are right... I don't know what I'm talking about and probably invented or just imagined in my brains half... not half... all the information I posted before.. so don't worry I take it back and I will not do this anymore 🤦‍♂️