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Cloudpiercing

Unable to take of in crosswind with the Cessna 172

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7 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

For example, a wheel is currently simulated as a single point. So, a wheel can resist movement or rolling or sliding when you brake. It does not resist rotation. A wheel can rotate [with a rudder or tiller] without resistance. If you’re in your car and you’re parked, and you turn the steering wheel, if you don’t have power steering, it’s not easy to turn the tire because it’s not a point: It’s a flat surface. It’s a patch on the ground of rubber that you’re moving. The new simulation is going to allow this. This helps with stability when you’re taking off. Currently, the plane is just a tripod of points, and as soon as the nose is up, you feel that it’s already twisting because the wheels are not simulated as patches of rubber. They do not resist rotation enough. These kinds of changes are going to make the moments of takeoff a lot more precise and realistic. Later this year.

This right here is the single most important thing Asobo can do for ground physics.

Simulating the wheels as a surface area that can resist rotation will make landings 2,000% easier. He says later this year - we have 2 more months until January. I hope he wasn't mistaken.

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38 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

See this thread: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/is-there-something-going-on-with-wind-or-runway-friction/545815/89

Basically the currently existing ground handling issues <=SU9 are more accentuated now with the re-addition of gusts in live weather.. MS/Asobo have introduced new flight model tuning parameters in SU10 for static ground friction, tire stickiness, etc but have *not* implemented those in their default aircraft yet. Also, the only 3rd party aircraft I know of to make use of these is the latest update of the Fenix A320. In above thread, there are some examples of folks modifying the flight_model.cfg of the default birds like C172. In any case, hopefully in SU11 MS/Asobo would've updated their default aircraft FMs for these and surely by then if not sooner all the noteable third party aircraft should be updated too.

Background details on the ground handling/physics issues which Asobo have discussed in their Q&As and their plans to rework/fix starting with SU10 (need to check if they actually updated the default Extra 330 as mentioned here): 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-may-25th-2022/521293/2

Chat question – What are some improvements that are coming for ground friction and handling? - Timestamp 3

Seb – Four new parameters are coming in Sim Update 10. Two of them are going to give the possibility to eliminate or at least tune, but we decided to cancel it out on our plane where we tested it. Basically, an old feature that we kept from FSX. FSX was canceling out all crosswind below a certain speed. At 50 knots, you had 100% crosswind, and then it was fading out to 10 knots and then it was 0. The problem is, while you take off or land, the crosswind keeps changing. And it’s very unnatural. So this is something where, in the parameters for the plane you can say at what speeds you want this to happen. So on the Cessna 172, we’re testing this, so we basically canceled the effect completely. So you have a 100% crosswind even if you are parked, or if you go very slow. If there is a lot of wind, it can actually spin your plane around, at first. So that’s one of the new parameters.

Seb – And the other one, two parameters are there to allow you to control how sticky your wheels are when they are rolling fast. So when you are already going pretty fast in the takeoff, the sim was considering the wheels to be pretty much on rails as if there were slick tires from a Formula 1 car. Very sticky. And only the weight…so if you pull on the yoke, your plane gets a bit lighter. And the weight goes down, which reduces friction a little bit. But it’s still static. So it means that as long as you don’t push to the side strong enough, you’re still on rails. And so, there’s two parameters that allow you to make it so that the plane drifts off. The wheels are spinning so if you push to the side, it’s going to drift off a little bit, especially with plane tires that are not anything but racing tires. So we tested that with taildraggers. Taildraggers will always be hard to land and takeoff. But it’s a lot more natural and easy with that. So this is something we implemented on the Extra 330 for Sim Update 10. Also, plane makers have examples of how this works, so they can use it, too. We will deploy on more based on feedback. These four parameters are a first step on improving the ground handling. So more stuff will come afterwards. But Sim Update 10 is going to be these four.


https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-march-2nd-2022/503504

Forum Community Question - Any update on the revamped ground physics handling/friction? In a past Q&A, we mentioned it had been done. Can you go into more detail and what’s coming up in the future?

Seb - ... 

But still, there is a deeper rework we need to do. Basically, it all comes from heavy simplifications that were in the sim 10-15 years ago, which were always assuming that the ground was flat. That’s why you couldn’t have sloped runways or undulated runways. The ground friction model…basically when something’s on the ground and when the brakes are fully engaged, you don’t move at all: The plane sticks to the ground. There’s what one could call infinite friction: There’s no movement at all. This is something we added that didn’t exist at all. And it wasn’t really needed 10 years ago because there were no slopes. When you put a plane on a flat terrain without wind, it’s not going to roll anywhere. But if you put that same system on a slope, it’s going to roll away and not stay there.

There’s also wind. Historically, in the sim, there was a system so that at low speeds, any crosswind was cancelled out. The plane ignores any form of wind, when you’re below, maybe 5-10 feet/second, which is why when you’re stopped on the ground, you go full propeller power and then there’s some propeller effects, so the plane starts going left. And then, all of a sudden, the wind kicks in, and then if you have a strong crosswind, it does this sort of thing which is not realistic. In reality, if I have a plane on the ground, and there’s a strong wind, and I release all brakes, it’s going to start moving: The wind is going to push it. And that currently does not happen. There are changes like that that we want to do. We want to do the ground friction model to make it 100% realistic. Which means that we don’t have to do anything: We don’t have to cancel it out anymore. Everything is going to be realistically simulated from when you stop to when you take off. There’s no such thing as crosswind that comes in over a few knots. I think it’s going to make the rudder a little easier. You’re just fighting one crosswind. It doesn’t change over time unless there’s gusts. Also, it’s going to work better on slopes. This rework is planned for somewhere this year, whenever we have time to go into that. It’s going to be compatible because the parameters are the same. It doesn’t change anything in the way you define or create or make airplanes. It just changes the way all the constraints and forces are sold so that the plane does what it’s supposed to do. All the constraints are the friction, the ground friction, the prop wash, the wind, even the engine, which is slightly shaking the plane. All these things come together. Currently, it’s a little bit better because we worked more in a bug fix development system, where we said, “The plane is sliding on the slope? Let’s fix that.” “The plane is sliding when there’s wind? Let’s fix that” Now we’re in a situation where we need to implement a real system instead of having a block of patches. That’s basically the next step, and that will give us much more realism the precise moment when you rotate.

For example, a wheel is currently simulated as a single point. So, a wheel can resist movement or rolling or sliding when you brake. It does not resist rotation. A wheel can rotate [with a rudder or tiller] without resistance. If you’re in your car and you’re parked, and you turn the steering wheel, if you don’t have power steering, it’s not easy to turn the tire because it’s not a point: It’s a flat surface. It’s a patch on the ground of rubber that you’re moving. The new simulation is going to allow this. This helps with stability when you’re taking off. Currently, the plane is just a tripod of points, and as soon as the nose is up, you feel that it’s already twisting because the wheels are not simulated as patches of rubber. They do not resist rotation enough. These kinds of changes are going to make the moments of takeoff a lot more precise and realistic. Later this year.

 

The new friction variables that Aboso are bragging about HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO EFFECT currently.  Try them yourself.   Asobo are like this though - they will brag and hype about some technological breakthrough coming in the future, but meanwhile they give us a broken sim, which we currently have now.   If Asobo KNEW that implementing gusting winds was going to make most, in not all of their own aircraft unflyable, why did they do it anyway????   

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2 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

The new friction variables that Aboso are bragging about HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO EFFECT currently.  Try them yourself.   Asobo are like this though - they will brag and hype about some technological breakthrough coming in the future, but meanwhile they give us a broken sim, which we currently have now.   If Asobo KNEW that implementing gusting winds was going to make most, in not all of their own aircraft unflyable, why did they do it anyway????   

You sure hate Asobo, don't you. Maybe you should find another hobby..

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To the OP of this thread:

PLEASE, PLEASE stop listening to people responding to you that certain things can be tweaked to make the sim perform correctly.   All they are doing is giving you a placebo and pretending they know what they are talking about.   There is no fix for the current situation other than Asobo releasing another update, PERIOD.    Indulging other people that keep telling you that it's the fault of your controller settings or technique, etc, are completely misguided.   You'll just languish in frustration otherwise.  

 

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10 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

To the OP of this thread:

PLEASE, PLEASE stop listening to people responding to you that certain things can be tweaked to make the sim perform correctly.   All they are doing is giving you a placebo and pretending they know what they are talking about.   There is no fix for the current situation other than Asobo releasing another update, PERIOD.    Indulging other people that keep telling you that it's the fault of your controller settings or technique, etc, are completely misguided.   You'll just languish in frustration otherwise.  

 

And they should also stop listening to your negative rant on everything Asobo does. 

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BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

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1 hour ago, hobart escin said:

The new friction variables that Aboso are bragging about HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO EFFECT currently.  Try them yourself.   Asobo are like this though - they will brag and hype about some technological breakthrough coming in the future, but meanwhile they give us a broken sim, which we currently have now.   If Asobo KNEW that implementing gusting winds was going to make most, in not all of their own aircraft unflyable, why did they do it anyway????   

 

56 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

 Indulging other people that keep telling you that it's the fault of your controller settings or technique, etc, are completely misguided.   You'll just languish in frustration otherwise.  


Thanks for the laughs again hobart... so these new flight model tuning parameters "have absolutely zero effect" and since you've proclaimed as such we all surely have to believe you I guess.  What does Aamir and the Fenix team know when they just used/implemented these and confirmed it here (https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/624533-fenix-hotfix-out/?do=findComment&comment=4849262) when you know best right? Oh and newsflash, most of us who use MSFS aren't hinging on the quality of its default aircraft, so if Asobo are slow to update their own default birds for FM improvements they make, we'll manage to somehow live without setting our hair on fire. And nobody said that we the users should be updating the default birds flight model configs, obviously best for Asobo to update them. And this gem: "All they are doing is giving you a placebo and pretending they know what they are talking about", wow you sure seem  to have some deep insights into the inner workings of Asobo don't you.

You and a couple of other characters around here certainly seem to be languishing in various frustrations given the constant raging on these threads and blowing things out of proportion with ridiculously unfounded claims, not to mention a curiously cringey hatred towards Asobo. It might be healthy to step away from MSFS and these forums maybe, or go back to a certain legacy sim or two. It's not even clear if you actually use MSFS so one has to wonder what your motives are. But anyways, you keep doing you, and we'll remain unconvinced by any of your rants.
 

Edited by lwt1971
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Len
1980s: Sublogic FS II on C64 ---> 1990s: Flight Unlimited I/II, MSFS 95/98 ---> 2000s/2010s: FS/X, P3D, XP ---> 2020+: MSFS
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2 hours ago, LRBS said:
Perhaps you have a corrupted file or something went wrong with your calibration of the yokes, rudders, etc. There is a tutorial on youtube on how to calibrate correctly. Plugging/unplugging doesn't fix it if there is a situation of improper calibration. TPR software even is got many ways of adjusting different settings I find the windows calibration more stable, in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it works for me flawlessly.
 
I noticed sometimes that the flight controls calibration might change from time to time with ASOBO and actually, sometimes will ask if I want to load different previous states without any changes on my end.
 
 
As @Bobsk8   and  @fakeflyer737 mentioned, x-wind demonstrated of 15KTS should be observed, it's not mandatory but recommended.

Thanks for the tip LRBS, but as I mentioned I've also tried to fly with my rudder, joystick & throttle disconnected. I've restarted the computer after I've disconnected the joystick,rudder and throttle an with d experienced the same problem when trying to take of with the help of my keyboard, so I don't think it's a problem with the calibration. The plane took of sharply to the right within the first 15 to 20 feet of the take of. Not even with full rudder and aileron with the keyboard could keep me on the runway. But as soon as I've changed from real wheather to scatttered clouds the take of and the rudder behavior of the 172 was normal. I have since then connected my joystick, rudder and throttle and restarted the computer again and made a real wheather  crosswind take of again from runway 17 (the whole purpose from the beginning to choose runway 17 was to do crosswind training) but this time with the DA40 this time to avoid the single prop 172, and the take of went of smoothly. So maybe the default 172 steamgauge aircraft got messed up  in the SU10 or maybe my installation got corrupted? Forgot to mention that I've emptied my community folder after my initial flight and before I made my next attempts att runway 17 at ESMS 


Come here you big, beautiful cup of coffee and lie to me about how much we’re going to get done today.

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27 minutes ago, Cloudpiercing said:

172

As I mentioned if you send me a PM with your email I can send you a mod for the 172 that I fixed that issue. Your choice.


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Well, "Cloudpiercing", do let us know how it works out for you using the magic tweak offered by these helpful individuals here.  That 'ole 172 tracking the runway centerline precisely like a Swiss watch now on all crosswind landings?  

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7 hours ago, hobart escin said:

Well, "Cloudpiercing", do let us know how it works out for you using the magic tweak offered by these helpful individuals here.  That 'ole 172 tracking the runway centerline precisely like a Swiss watch now on all crosswind landings?  

Probably a modified CFG using How to manually add new SU10 ground friction variables - PMDG Simulations


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Thanks for all the helpful tips, and thank you LRBS for the cfg files. Unfortenately I will not have time do test these cfg files until next weekend due to I'll have to burn that midnight oil at work this week with our final accounts. It's that time of the month. 


Come here you big, beautiful cup of coffee and lie to me about how much we’re going to get done today.

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20 hours ago, Cloudpiercing said:

Would someone please try to make a take of from runway 17 at ESMS today? There's a crosswind there right now and I'm unable to to take of from that runway today after the SU10 update. There's not enough rudder authority. Even when appyling full left rudder the plane still drifts heavely to the right agains the wind to the grass!   I've tried to unplugg my TRp rudder pedals and all my joysticks and rebooted my computer and tried to stear the plan with just my keyboard but got the same result. It is a bug or is it someting wrong on my end? If i try to take of with no real wheather there's no problem to controll the aircraft on the runway with my Thrustmaster TPR rudder. I'll obvisly get that you have too aply rudder when taking of with crosswind, I've been simming since the 90's, but even with full ruder the plane immediately turns to to right.



 

 

Did you ever ascertain the amount of crosswind at that  time?, impossible to even judge whether the behavior you describe is inaccurate in the first place without that info

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Quote

If Asobo KNEW that implementing gusting winds was going to make most, in not all of their own aircraft unflyable, why did they do it anyway????   

I can only speak of my own experience but in the sim I generally fly small lightweight aircraft (same irl), last night I was enjoying re-visiting  the Asobo Husky which I consider Asobo's best release, the day before the stock savage, live weather around the high ground near denali, got blown about as I would expect. interesting landing but without incident

Ive not found anything unflyable in conditions that wouldnt be irl.

Whilst I can understand differences in visual rendering and performance due different spec machines and settings related differences.

Its hard for me to understand how this apparently large difference in flight Dynamics can occur, or is it just a matter of perception?

Are you very new to flight sims and perhaps under-estimating the control needed in windy conditions?

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