So mSparks, what your default R22 veredict ?

[mSparks 2,086]

I had something of an X-Plane day.

started just messing around, tuning up some 744 parameters from some RW pilot feedback, then decided to take the R22 for something of a spin, put on the VR headset, fired it up and shot a quick flight to Kosmaj and back.

That took just over an hour. "should have recorded that flight" I thought to myself, don't have time now, had to go out. Then remembered not only does XP have replay, but you can save them.

So I did.

got back and spent much of the afternoon shooting autoland approaches in the 744, knew the new the changes to the throttle had broken autoland, so testing out why that was misbehaving. fixed, pushed to github at 21.45....

Love how github tracks that, afternoons testing and fixes wrapped up in a single number 1892640

Anyway, why that random rabling in the R22, well, because then I loaded up the saved replay above and left it recording, and decided it was worth doing my own little review

I think my review can be summarised really simply.

Only thing really wrong with it is it's an R22, I learnt a lot from that hour about why the R44 is so popular, and also the difference payware makes, my "go to" is the Vskylabs R44, available for XP11 and XP12, 

I just read an absolutely brutal review of that

https://www.helisimmer.com/reviews/vskylabs-r44-x-plane

I had never noticed any of the things he criticised it for, they just seem so minor compared to things that actually matter and take the time and it gets right.

Like this for example

Quote

Another strange thing, and the shape and size are suspect too is the blower housing. VSL have also added a sort of FOD screen which isn’t present on any R44 I’ve seen and isn’t available as a mod from the factory, so I have no clue where that came from.

To me that was obvious, the cooling fan isn't modelled, it was a way to cover it up.

OTOH, I wouldn't go as far as saying the review is unfair... it just feels it.

I thought a lot on that writing this post, I think its because there isn't any kind of comparison, like where do these sit vs their competitors, it's one thing to point out that the exterior modelling isn't 100% perfect....

.....OK, I take it back, 100% unfair, they gave it a lower score than this steaming pile of 2D garbage, reviewed only the year before - claiming it was great for VR no less.....

https://www.helisimmer.com/reviews/mp-design-studio-r-44-p3d

which they even conclude

Quote

 you should not be getting this helicopter because of the flight dynamics feature list.

If you want to get it, do it because it’s a nice helicopter for P3D. Period. Chances are that the features will not work for you and you may feel like something is wrong or even “cheated”.

That %$%$%£$% is a better model than (their picture)

in what reality????!!!?

Actual cockpit:

VSL R44 in XP12

Edited October 31, 2022 by mSparks

[jcomm 5,916]

Thanks a lot for the review and various opinions @mSparks !

A few remarks:

1) Your 744 is growing gorgeous and with excellent "feel of control", without that typical and unrealistic sluggisnesh that plagues most aircraft in XP where the inertia feel is overdone and they move like if they were under the effect of drugs 🙂

Your 744 in the last GitHub version I tested it from, 2 days ago, is, I would say, as responsive to control inputs as the Aerowinx PSX, and that, I must say, is quite an achievement ! 

2) Then regarding Hellisimmer, Sérgio is an old friend 🙂  He is an incredably active, dedicated and tallented blogger and web designer, with very good web stack skills, and a passion for helis only comparable to my passion for women legs 😜

Sérgio's first Ruder Control System was a Thrustmaster I gave him after having quited FSX and simulation for a few years starting 2007. And I still remember long before that the day he refused to pay duties for 6 XP8 disks Austin sent him / us, for an XP review meant to be published at his first sie 🙂

3) I would buy the VSLabs R44, but I am saving my bucks now because crisis is serious around here and I still have to make some RW flights this year, and heck, AVGAS is EXPENSIVE these days !!! and glider tus drink it as germans drink beer 😕

But Iam seriously tempted to give it a try when the XP12 version becomes available!

4) Also curious about what you would say about the AEFS4 helis? Sergio tested it at the AEFS HQ, using a motion platform they had ( very very expensive... ) and he told me wonders about it.

Edited October 31, 2022 by jcomm

[mSparks 2,086]

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

as responsive to control inputs as

it should get good there, in so much as there is something of a massive update that haven't talk about much.

I asked Ben if there was any nasty side effects of switching to fully overridden controls early last year, didn't really get an answer... then found fully overriding the controls there is a nasty side effect... the AP servos all broke. So most of this year has been getting that pretty basic functionality back, but with the benefit that now every minute detail can be tuned rather than trying to trade off the 5 or 6 numbers that defined the way the AP servos used to work.

The "magic" for that is in

"hydraulics override"

which simulates how hydraulic pressure interacts with all the control surfaces "by the book" - also means hydraulic failures fail the correct surfaces. plus replacements for the XP flight directors....

and

"a control wiring diagram"

That was a fairly recent addition I dumped into xtlua for the control overrides that allows defining formula from one XP dataref to another. e.g. what position the pedals are set to (sim/cockpit2/controls/total_heading_ratio), and pulling cables to both the upper and lower rudder, run through a rudder ratio changer...

That then should give the correct control surface deflections across the speed range (e.g. ailerons now properly change their behaviour below 232kts and above 238kts IAS)

As Austin dials in a better and better flight model (how those control deflections translate into the aircraft moving), that should get closer and closer to "right".

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

Then regarding Hellisimmer, Sérgio is an old friend 🙂

Reading either of the R44 reviews by Nick Bates or Sérgio in isolation they don't seem off, but if you are personally comparing which to get when it "must" be an R44:

7.3 / 10 for 

https://www.helisimmer.com/reviews/mp-design-studio-r-44-p3d

and 7 / 10 for

https://www.helisimmer.com/reviews/vskylabs-r44-x-plane

The results do not match the content at all imho. Something went very wrong when the best and still getting better R44 simulator you can get is scoring lower than do not buy this R44 unless you just want a random helo in your hanger..

I do not for a second believe it was intentional, but that kind of reviewing has implications, e.g.

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

you would say about the AEFS4 helis?

This?

Linux FTW. It's not XP12, but looks like a lot of lovely content to lose even more hours on...

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

when the XP12 version becomes available!

of the VSL R44? its already out, and the R66 (not had time to try that one yet). For some 6 months now the only reason I've fired up XP11 is to see if a bug in XP12 is new or not, and how any behaviour compared with before. 

XP12 isn't even out of beta yet, and all the other sim engines have a lot of catching up to do to be this good by default, in my humble, entirely biased, opinion (IMHEBO)...

I'm thinking my next flight sim purchase is possibly 

https://store.x-plane.org/R44-Sound-pack-for-the-VSKYLABS-R44_p_1437.html

Because I agree with Nick Bates that the bundled sound is lacking, all in that makes it a $52 heli, which is a little steep, but in the scheme of things $18 extra for the sounds is pretty much par for the course, good value even...

Edited October 31, 2022 by mSparks

[Humpty 751]

What I would like to know is why my 22 is pitching up , controls are centered 

[mSparks 2,086]

20 minutes ago, Humpty said:

controls are centered 

yeah, they do that... need a lot of forward cyclic as you transition into forward flight, before bringing it back to just before neutral. 

additionally depends on how your cog shifts around, Robinsons are "left skid low" (S76 is right skid low), with a passenger that is more pronounced and there will also be a tendancy to pitch down by the cog moving further forward.

The list of crazy ways helis behave is pretty epic. The bigger helis have a lot of different styles of stability systems that remove things like that (each with specific training requirements for when they fail).

Also

while other helicopters have an autohover button....

[Humpty 751]

14 minutes ago, mSparks said:

yeah, they do that... need a lot of forward cyclic as you transition into forward flight, before bringing it back to just before neutral. 

additionally depends on how your cog shifts around, Robinsons are "left skid low" (S76 is right skid low), with a passenger that is more pronounced and there will also be a tendancy to pitch down by the cog moving further forward.

The list of crazy ways helis behave is pretty epic. The bigger helis have a lot of different styles of stability systems that remove things like that (each with specific training requirements for when they fail).

Also

while other helicopters have an autohover button....

Hmm ok. Thanks. But this when I leave the cyclic , So i need to keep pushing the cyclic forward

[mSparks 2,086]

16 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Hmm ok. Thanks. But this when I leave the cyclic , So i need to keep pushing the cyclic forward

have you set a pilot up in weight an balance?

are you talking about in forward flight - in which case, unless you are in a heli with a trim option you need a constant small amount of forward cyclic. (why heli pilots pull the springs out of their joystick, because they are murder on the wrists)

Edited November 6, 2022 by mSparks

[jcomm 5,916]

22 minutes ago, mSparks said:

have you set a pilot up in weight an balance?

He can't... He's ashamed of doing so, he refuses to enter his true Rotary Fighter Miggy piloteee weight... Heli would be way above MTOW... 

BTW mSparks, between us and since no one else can listen... Zulfi tries to drive his helis as a Mig-21... I tried to explain him there's a slight difference but he keeps saying it's all the same ... In the end both miraculously fly, so, same principles should apply...

Jokes apart, great video above Sparks!  That instructor lady called my attention - I might try helicopters !!!

I believe that's also what captured Zulfi's attention... 

Zulfii! give up... I'll get ya one of these:

Conjuntos de Treino e Estabilizadores de Helicópteros RC | Nitrotek

Edited November 6, 2022 by jcomm

[Humpty 751]

14 minutes ago, mSparks said:

have you set a pilot up in weight an balance?

are you talking about in forward flight - in which case, unless you are in a heli with a trim option you need a constant small amount of forward cyclic. (why heli pilots pull the springs out of their joystick, because they are murder on the wrists)

everything is balanced , and yes in forward flight.

[Humpty 751]

3 minutes ago, jcomm said:

He can't... He's ashamed of doing so, he refuses to enter his true Rotary Fighter Miggy piloteee weight... Heli would be way above MTOW... 

BTW mSparks, between us and since no one else can listen... Zulfi tries to drive his helis as a Mig-21... I tried to explain him there's a slight difference but he keeps saying it's all the same ... In the end both fly, so, same principles should apply...

Jokes apart, great video above Sparks!  That instructor lady called my attention - I might try helicopters !!!

Zulfii, give up... I'll get ya one of these:

Conjuntos de Treino e Estabilizadores de Helicópteros RC | Nitrotek

😛
Oh my miggie. 

 

[mSparks 2,086]

1 minute ago, Humpty said:

and yes in forward flight.

if you watch the inputs here

you should see the cyclic much closer to his knees than during the hover.

I forget which one it is but its todo with static and dynamic stability.

[Humpty 751]

2 minutes ago, mSparks said:

if you watch the inputs here

you should see the cyclic much closer to his knees than during the hover.

I forget which one it is but its todo with static and dynamic stability.

Thanks for this.

[mSparks 2,086]

32 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Thanks for this.

Much more detail on the physics calls here

https://www.spinningwing.com/the-helicopter/helicopter-stability/

I think what you are talking about specifically is 

Quote

The long-term mode of oscillation in which the helicopter automatically pitches down, descends, speeds up, pitches up, climbs, slows down, pitches down, descends, … without pilot input is called a phugoid mode. From the discussion above, the frequency and damping of these oscillations is highly dependent on the rotor flapping characteristics and the horizontal stabilizer. The values are also dependent on the initial flight condition. A typical period for a helicopter phugoid mode is about 20s. The mode may or may not be dynamically stable, depending on the model and airspeed. Automatic flight control systems (AFCS), when employed, will typically damp out this mode quickly.

which, iirc, is very similar to a plane, but the R22 doesn't have trim, (S76 does, but I'm not sure its modelled, also has full autopilot - which is)

Edited November 6, 2022 by mSparks

[Humpty 751]

57 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Much more detail on the physics calls here

https://www.spinningwing.com/the-helicopter/helicopter-stability/

I think what you are talking about specifically is 

which, iirc, is very similar to a plane, but the R22 doesn't have trim, (S76 does, but I'm not sure its modelled, also has full autopilot - which is)

Yes pitches up mostly. 

[mSparks 2,086]

1 minute ago, Humpty said:

Yes pitches up mostly. 

the greater the airspeed the more they tend to pitch up, until you get so fast the retreating blade loses lift due to having no airspeed and they fall over and out of the sky - which I noticed while getting down to the frigate seems to have stopped working and is on my list of bugs to file. (only thing on the list atm)