Comair Flight Crashes After Departing Lexington, Kentucky

[LAdamson 240]

>Why didn't the pilot ask for progressives if unsure and why>don't the airlines use a technology that is available to a>"weekend pilot" for very little cost that adds a lot to>safety? (I know the answer to the second question)....>You would not believe some of the replies, when you put a question like this on a commercial/passenger/cargo pilot forum. It's stick with, and know your "old school" ways, before the fancy toys like GPS! And then what seems like a million reasons why we shouldn't put to much faith in the global positioning system.And yet an actual Jeppeson "airport diagram" with the airplane symbol placed at an obvious short runway, could have made all the difference.And as you said, it's available to all weekend pilots. But what the heck, weekend pilots had much better moving maps than commercial pilots for years. And now we have better weather, thanks to setups such as XM Satellite.Here is my take. Many retired commercial pilots that I know, really get into this new glass technology with their new "expensive" kitbuilt airplanes. It seems that numerous active commercial pilots just are not all that familiar with new high tech glass panels such as the Garmin, Avidyne, and Chelton systems, and act this way to cover their lack of familiarization.Yet, this new glass panel is making it's way up through the piston engine Cessna's, Pipers, to the Biz jets and on up to the new generation airliners such as the new Boeing Dreamliner. With a GPS driven airport diagram covering 2/3rds of a 15" MFD, the wrong runway shouldn't be too hard to miss!L.Adamson

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>I think you misuderstood. The only way a "runway" is displayed>is if you load an approach for that specific runway. Are you>saying you load in an approach for the runway you are using at>the departure airport? Seriously? Do you brief the approach>before you take off too??? I will have to call my eagle buds>to see if that is how it is done there...i understand you completely. no i do not load an "abort" approach. however we do brief what runway(s) we would use, etc if an emergency happens. the expected abort ils i do load into NAV2 on both RTU's. i've had two emergency returns and knowing what to do ahead of time, saves time i think.i'm all about keeping flight time simple (the ole KISS philosophy). have you ever flown from ORD-MKE? ORD-GRR? ORD-PIA? ORD-MSN? i'll brief the approach (based on the ATIS), send the in range, all while holding short to takeoff for these short flights. i'd rather do these things on the ground rather than rushing in the air. to me its simply managing time a lot better.so what airline do you work for?

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>Here is my take. Many retired commercial pilots that I know,>really get into this new glass technology with their new>"expensive" kitbuilt airplanes. It seems that numerous active>commercial pilots just are not all that familiar with new high>tech glass panels such as the Garmin, Avidyne, and Chelton>systems, and act this way to cover their lack of>familiarization.they do know. their employers simply do not want to spend any extra money than they have to. they'll wait till it is mandated at the last possible moment and then install them (a la GPWS and TAWS).if pilots could pick equipment then all these regional jets would have autothrottles, autobrakes, etc.

[btacon 1,772]

the FAA sez:3-1-7. POSITION DETERMINATION Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance. NOTE-The aircraft's position may be determined visually by the controller, by pilots, or through the use of the ASDE. Note the note. The towers reposibility is to validate the pilots are where they say they are, either with eyeball or ASDE. NEVER are they to accept the pilots word that they are "at the runway".At the end of the day, this is where the system broke down.BT

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>the FAA sez:>>3-1-7. POSITION DETERMINATION >>Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi>instructions or takeoff clearance. >>NOTE->The aircraft's position may be determined visually by the>controller, by pilots, or through the use of the ASDE. >>Note the note. The towers reposibility is to validate the>pilots are where they say they are, either with eyeball or>ASDE. NEVER are they to accept the pilots word that they are>"at the runway".>>At the end of the day, this is where the system broke down.you're absolutely correct. nothing new needs to come down on pilots or ATC because of this fluke accident. this is what i have been saying.now if the FAA (since it is *wink wink* 100% interested in saftey) had followed its OWN guidelines and had 2 sets of eyes up there (not one set operating on two hours of sleep), someone might have noticed.

[btacon 1,772]

In my zeal to make a point, I overstated the obvious. It's never that simple, never so clean.Thank you for quelling my irrational exuberance.bt

[Guest TWVA395]

I've been trying to stay out of this but... there is no way... no way that the FAA's main objective isn't safety. Why else would they be there? If the FAA wanted to screw everyone over, it would either be a) shutdown or :( reorganized... and I'm sure everyone who has a high-ranking position in the FAA wants to lose their job because they are more interested in watching planes crash on CNN than doing their job.http://www.kthxdone.com/images/kw_ft.jpgKen Weik [link:maam.org|MAAM-SIM][link:library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=root&SearchTerm=kenneth+weik&Sort=Added&ScanMode=0&Go=Change+View]My AFCADs

[Guest fosters81]

>i understand you completely. no i do not load an "abort">approach. however we do brief what runway(s) we would use, etc>if an emergency happens. the expected abort ils i do load into>NAV2 on both RTU's. i've had two emergency returns and knowing>what to do ahead of time, saves time i think.that's great. but doing so won't put a "runway" on the MFD. which was my point to begin with.EDITed to add: I recently did PHL-ABE (sans autopilot) 57 miles. CLT-GSO 72 miles, CLT-GSP 65 miles. Your trips aren't anything special, bud. P.S. BOTH Nav 2's??? You mean standby Nav1 and Nav2?

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>EDITed to add: I recently did PHL-ABE (sans autopilot) 57>miles. CLT-GSO 72 miles, CLT-GSP 65 miles. Your trips aren't>anything special, bud. ok air whiskey or psa "bud". you must be a real pleasure to fly with. i'm glad to see you can fly without an autopilot. >P.S. BOTH Nav 2's??? You mean standby Nav1 and Nav2?i said nav2 on both rtu's. you knew what i meant. i'm guessing you have the epc memorized too. you should be an instructor since you are so particular. you can smack those idiots around in the sim and get your jollies that way.since you know it all you would know the RTU calls it PRE (for preset) or RECALL and not standby.just remember to simply move out of our way in your 500fpm climb.......but on a light note, since you fly in CLT you do get to hear the greatest controller in the USA, the auctioneer!

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>I've been trying to stay out of this but... there is no>way... no way that the FAA's main objective isn't safety. Why>else would they be there? If the FAA wanted to screw everyone>over, it would either be a) shutdown or :( reorganized... and>I'm sure everyone who has a high-ranking position in the FAA>wants to lose their job because they are more interested in>watching planes crash on CNN than doing their job.ken,the faa by its very nature has 2 roles, which are in direct conflict with one another. one is indeed, safety. the promotion of the aviation industry is the other (with the airlines ata lobbying championing their cause).the faa does not follow it's own staffing guidelines for its own employees. it allows airlines to build ridiculously fatiguing schedules, but hey they have a "legal" 8-1/2 hour rest period in there.the airlines state their number one goal is always safety (a la faa). using your logic then they too would want this as they would lose their jobs and customers if not. sadly history has shown us they cut corners just like the faa (alaska jackscrew problem, airtransat's fuel pump rigging, aa's dc10 engine changing procedure, air midwest lack of monitoring raytheon's elevator maintenance procedures, etc etc).

[btacon 1,772]

RedundancyCheck and BalanceFailsafeetcbt

[RobertVA 0]

>the FAA sez:>>3-1-7. POSITION DETERMINATION >>Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi>instructions or takeoff clearance. >>NOTE->The aircraft's position may be determined visually by the>controller, by pilots, or through the use of the ASDE. >>Note the note. The towers reposibility is to validate the>pilots are where they say they are, either with eyeball or>ASDE. NEVER are they to accept the pilots word that they are>"at the runway".>>At the end of the day, this is where the system broke down.>>BTI haven't seen any report that indicates the controler didn't know where the plane was WHEN THE CLEARACE WAS GIVEN. But if the controler is allowed to clear for BOTH taxi AND takeoff before the aircraft leaves the parking apron there is a significant delay between the takeoff clearance and its use.Maybe it's time to:Require the delay of takeoff clearance until aircraft has reported clearing the last runway they had to cross along their taxi route. At busy airports I would imagine it's normal not to issue runway entry or takeoff clearance until the aircraft is at or near the takeoff runway's hold short line anyway.Require the addition of pilots verbaly stating number of runway they are cleared for and verbaly reading heading indication from magnetic compass to ALL writtrn and posted aircraft takeoff check lists (in cockpit - not on radio). This heading check to be performed between aligning aircraft with runway center and advancing throttles for takeoff. If lighting permits pilots would have to vocalize runway designation from red runway signage AND pavement markings as well.

[Guest fosters81]

>>ok air whiskey or psa "bud". you must be a real pleasure to>fly with. i'm glad to see you can fly without an autopilot. >Just knocking you off your high horse, bud.>just remember to simply move out of our way in your 500fpm>climb.......>Ouch, that hurt. You've spread disinformation (runway on MFD during t/o, confirmed by a friend that flies the 700 for PSA), tried to show what a big bad dude you are for flying a jet on short hops that all of us regional pilots do, and now you make fun of the airplane I fly?I will now make fun of eagles':-Contract-Payrates (sweet dude, you make less then me and you are flying 70 seater. sweeeeeeeet! a jet!!!!)-QOL-Mgmt/employee relations and the big one, (drum roll please........)-UPGRADE (awac is 2 years, 3 months currently, what is eagles???)this is fun, I can do this all day.P.S. Yes, I told eagle thanks but no thanks. Probably the best decision I've made so far :). I knew that to be true when I had an 8 year eagle FO on the jumpseat...(she was ORD based).

[michal 44]

>Granted, I am not a pilot, but I don't understand why so much>heat/attention Neither do I. Forget even the 40 degrees - the runway was half the normal width and unlit.A couple of years ago a crew of Chineese 747 took off from Anchorage in the middle of a night using taxiway instead of runway. They were lucky because it was long enough but they barely cleared a snow embakment. You have to be blind to confuse txiway with a runway. No controller was blamed in this case - it would have been impossible to spot them in time considering the geometry of the situation.Or perhaps in both cases we have deliberate actions of pilots how try to do something different, to spice up their flying? How do you build 'redundancy' against this kind of stupidity?Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/for...argo_hauler.gifhttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

[btacon 1,772]

Hi Michael J."How do you build 'redundancy' against this kind of stupidity?"You cant all the time. You just do what you can do.Security is incremental...BT