Shooting the messenger...

[btacon 1,772]

In light of reaction to Phil Taylor's post I make the following observation:While venting may help you allay your feelings towards FSX, in the long-term it makes our messenger less likely to give us messages.I for one would prefer to keep the new open relationship with ACES. My point? Please keep it civil.My 2 cents,bthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

[jmig 100]

I agree completely. I said much the same on another site, recently.

[Guest tmilton]

I wholeheartedly agree. I wish we all would keep in mind the great service Phil is providing the community by communicating with us. I have been impressed with how he has tackled issue after issue in an honest and straightforward way.Also he has been instrumental in correcting and debunking the numerous attempts by others who try to spread misinformation amongst the community. With Phil, we get the story straight from the source. Keep in mind it just can't get better than this.I understand there may be disagreements at times, since no one will agree 100% of the time, but please try to keep it respectful, and keep in mind the incredible benefit this community has gained to have Phil with us.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

You have our concurrence on this. If any one finds a message that is "over the top" or that in your opinion would alienate the MS team, please use the alert button and we'll take a look. Having said that, the team, including Phil, are big boys and Phil has proven he can take care of himself. Use the alert button, but understand that what may be objectionable to you, may be a legitimate question, statement, in our humble opinion and possibly, even Phil's.

[jackcnd 0]

Agree 100%, I've seen it so many times, an employee gets involved on the web usually a forum, regarding a product. Instead of people using it as a chance to learn and give and get feedback, some attack and generally act rude. Often, in the end the employee stops posting or even quits his job. Just check AVS forums for examples of that.MS has been 1st class with FSX. They could have just released FSX and left it as is, but instead they have been amazing with public support and information from the developers, add to that the service packs and add ons in development.I was very frustrated with FSX performance on my last PC, but on a new PC is a really amazing sim, and the support from MS by people like Phil is even better.

[Virtualwombat 4]

Sure, let's keep it civil. Play the ball and not the man. On the other hand I think most people, with a few outstanding exceptions, have been extremely restrained. After all we have just been told:1. FSX DX10 will not look anything like the widely circulated artist's impressions.2. FSX DX10 performance will probably be a marginal improvement (if any) rather than the widely touted 500-800% frame rate increase.3. All our hideously expensive DX10 cards will be obsolete when Vista SP1 is released with DX10.1.Given the claims that were made regarding the potential of FSX running under Vista and DX10, people are entitled to be sore. Microsoft have lost a great deal of credibility and trust among the community.N.

[Guest unitedpilot36]

Indeed, it's almost sickening how some of the people on these forums suck up to people at Aces like they're God's. People kiss their #### no matter what, how about we provide actual feedback on the product in hopes of improvements and such instead of agreeing with everything he's saying.There's no reason to get rude, no, but we need to have opinions and suggestions on the product instead of the usual suckup bs I see whenever someone from MS posts here.MS sending 2-3 people onto some forums from time to time doesn't impress me, especially when the end product turned out the way it did. I'll give them some credit though, atleast they're making an effort, sorta. Anyway, I don't snap at MS developers. I like you see the good in having them here from time to time, it just irritates me when people suck up to them like they saved their kitten from a tree or something.

[victorwest2 0]

>Sure, let's keep it civil. Play the ball and not the man. On>the other hand I think most people, with a few outstanding>exceptions, have been extremely restrained. After all we have>just been told:>>1. FSX DX10 will not look anything like the widely circulated>artist's impressions.>>2. FSX DX10 performance will probably be a marginal>improvement (if any) rather than the widely touted 500-800%>frame rate increase.>>3. All our hideously expensive DX10 cards will be obsolete>when Vista SP1 is released with DX10.1.>500-800%. Where on earth did you read that? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.Obsolete hardware? Isn't that what often happens when you rush out to buy something when it first comes out? Not really just an FSX thing.

[aerdt 0]

MS has been VERY straight-forward and unusually informative and supportive. I cannot remember a release of FS (or any other gane for that matter) where the community was more or less in direct contact with the developers. The support of MS/Aces is nothing but fantastic.We got a FANTASTIC SP1 that addressed a lot of performance issues. We will get a FREE SP2 that will not only support DX10, but will also supposedly fix some additional bugs. We will get an expansion pack.When is comes to performance issues: Who ever said that DX will get a 500-800% frame rate increase? You are aware that that would translate to 100-150fps, a rate that cannot even be achieved with FS9? Unfortunately developers cannot suck CPU and GPU performance out of thin air, because all the visual bells'n'whistles have to be processed somehow. Can you name a single piece of hardware in the past 30 years that has achieved a 400-800% increase in performance from one generation to the next? Probably not, so let's stay real here.Yes, DX10.1 will be a new release and it will possibly get some additional performance improvements. But, first of all, DX10.1 is not even available yet. Secondly, Phil stated that DX10.1 will not make it into FSX. Thirdly, read this: "But don't get too upset just yet: 'Gamers shouldn't fret too much - 10.1 adds virtually nothing that they will care about and, more to the point, adds almost nothing that developers are likely to care about. The spec revision basically makes a number of things that are optional in DX10 compulsory under the new standard - such as 32-bit floating point filtering, as opposed to the 16-bit current. 4xAA is a compulsory standard to support in 10.1, whereas graphics vendors can pick and choose their anti-aliasing support currently. We suspect that the spec is likely to be ill-received. Not only does it require brand new hardware, immediately creating a minuscule sub-set of DX10 owners, but it also requires Vista SP1, and also requires developer implementation.'"Source: http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/08/11/0524250.shtmlThat's all.Pat

[BobP 56]

I do appreciate Phil Taylor's posts, suggestions and updates. For those of us have been simming since the Sublogic days, it is a welcomed presence. I would hate to see that communication lost due to personal attacks. However this website should provide balanced feedback for the thousands of simmers worldwide who read our comments. And Tom stated it very succinctly that over the top comments will be removed; and they should. I feel ACES presence is more of a rescue worker at a train wreck, than a manufactures' rep helping fine tune my television set. :) I have come to accept the fact that FSX will not be a serious simming platform for me for a year or two. The program's performance is poor, inconsistent, almost chaotic relative to different (and even similar) computers. I do look forward to the time when VISTA and FSX and my hardware our in complete harmony. :)Bob...

[btacon 1,772]

Hi Chris...While not a direct ad-hominem upon my virtual persona, the tone, tenor and implications in your reply does indeed demonstrate my point.Are you shooting at me, directly or indirectly? Intentionally or unintentionally? Aware or unaware?Think about it.bt

[n4gix 4,947]

>Indeed, it's almost sickening how some of the people on these>forums suck up to people at Aces...It's actually the practice of an apparently vanishing art known formally as diplomacy... :-wave

[kjackson 0]

I too have been around since the Sublogic days. I can honestly say that because of the Microsoft Flight Simulator series I am a certified SEL private pilot with many hours flight time.With a mediocre computer (2GB RAM, ATIx1300, 3GHz single core CPU) I am running Vista Ultimate with FSX/SP1. I use FSX for practicing instruments and short flights around the Texas area and beyond and it performs magnificently. There are times when I

[PhilTaylor 45]

1. For months I have been gently hinting that expectations need to be reset. Calling them the "magic screenies" is a very broad hint. As was my Feb post about GeometryShader performance and the water shots.2. There is one interview where Chris Donahue talks about how long shaders will help with shader management for the DX10 API, and how that individual feature may now be 800% faster. I did not hear him say applications will run that much faster. And that has nothing to do with FSX the specific app. No where did anyone from Aces give that sort of guidance.If you think 20% is marginal, ok, but could we least keep the claims straight, please? As in what ones are for the API and what ones are for FSX itself.3. 10.1 will run on 10.0 cards as 10.0. This no more obsolete's your cards than the 9.0c update to the 9.0 shader models and the 5xxx series. Those cards run 9.0c but without access to the new features since they lack the hw. And yes, the 5xxx series obsoleted the geForce 4 series. This is the normal "pace of the industry" effect and nothing more.And given FSX is going to use 10.0 and not 10.1 this isnt really an issue for FSX either. We will run on either hw.In point of fact, 10.1 will drive down prices of 10.0 and that should be good for FSX.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Excellent riposte (or is that repost) Bill! :)