1 hour ago, Mike T said:

So, a Piper Cub does INDEED have systems. Those systems include a pitot-static system, a vacuum system, a fuel system - which requires knowledge of the proper fuel mixtures for various altitudes and power settings, an electrical system, an engine system, and a flight control system, which includes proper trimming and manipulation in flight.

All those systems in a lowly Piper Cub must be meticulously maintained and checked during each pre-flight, as well as managed in flight. Additionally, one does not simply jump into a "simple piston powered" aircraft and fly. The assumption is that one is current in that aircraft with the appropriate hours to demonstrate proficiency as indicated in your logbook. To that end, currency is a less formal version of a type rating, but no less important.

So, I think millions of skilled piston pilots would be a bit offended by your characterization.

To that end - what's study level? Well, the first few weeks at flight school for an airline will see you flying the "paper tiger" which is a full scale cardboard POSTER of a cockpit. So a poster is recognized as "study-level" by every flight school in the world. People confuse fidelity (the level of recreation of the aircraft) with study level (a meaningless term which can mean anything to anyone).

Mike T.

My background is probably different than you think.  I love piston powered airplanes and have had many years of experience with them.  Yeah they have systems.  But they are not at all as complex as we would find in some turbine airplanes.  

PS    Some of my best real world flying is in an aeronca champ.  

Nothing in MSFS or XP is study level, they are just marketing scams.

Sure PMDG , Fenix and Maddog  have complex systems but they will never be study level

Only true study level is in commercial sims,  eg Level D flight sims

Edited January 15, 20233 yr by jason74

2 hours ago, micstatic said:

My background is probably different than you think.  I love piston powered airplanes and have had many years of experience with them.  Yeah they have systems.  But they are not at all as complex as we would find in some turbine airplanes.  

PS    Some of my best real world flying is in an aeronca champ.  

Every engine has its own complexity and an airplane piston engine has much more different standards compared to a car piston engine, a 4 or 6 cylinders Lycoming requires a lot of care for setting it up and the maintenance, and you have to check how they work all the time, especially in winter. Not to speak the big radials like the Pratt&Whitney R-2800 double wasp: on a DC-6 you have to take care of 72 cylinders, 18 cylinders each turbocharged engine, this complexity is well simulated in the PMDG DC-6.

37 minutes ago, jason74 said:

Nothing in MSFS or XP is study level, they are just marketing scams.

Sure PMDG , Fenix and Maddog  have complex systems but they will never be study level

Only true study level is in commercial sims,  eg Level D flight sims

Somebody had to say it!😉

16 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

There are plenty of "real world pilots" - another meaningless term - I mean, real world as opposed to what other world?

Ricardo, come on--real world as opposed to pretend pilots in a desktop flight sim.

5 hours ago, wiler said:

My honest take is : I dont think the term is appropriate use for a game.  My stance has always been , wanna 'study' then go learn to fly real airplanes and stop pretending. I can tell you there is no substitute for learning in real life. The pressure of really having to do it is quite different then a game while having a brew at home.  No matter how many systems are closely emulated in any addon the feel and feedback of flight cant be replicated in a home sim. Do I love simming, sure but its just a game and nothing here is study level. I would give these so called 'study level' products a rating system (A,B,C,D) and give criteria of what it is able to emulate and how well it does it.  Like fenix and pmdg I would say A rated addon, for example. 

Pretty much sums it up for me. I'm certain that all regular users of the sim are doing so for entertainment. And peoples choice of entertainment varies. From Mozart, The Rolling Stones, Shakespeare, Tolkien, Enid Blyton, Comics, Soap Operas. They are intellectually ranked by elitists but are all just forms of entertainment.

 

And the idea that MSFS is not just for fun is ridiculous. No plane in the sim can be real because the sim itself is not life like. For a start real planes contain real people. Real Co Pilots and real passengers. And people do random and unpredictable things. So does the atmosphere and the world. But nothing in the sim is random. It's entirely predictable because it's just code.

 

For me Study Level just means Good Quality. 

"Study Level" is a term invented by the kind of person who might also have invented the word "influencer". It is a ludicrous phrase to artificially elevate the status of (usually) large aircraft with FMCs, VNAV and other avionics. 

But EVERY aircraft, from a glider to a B787 is a "study level" machine, in that it requires study and practice to fly decently and accurately. It's bad enough that some developers egotistically describe their own products as study level, but routinely reviewers and YouTubers use this hackneyed phrase too.

I really wish people would stop using this ridiculous description.

15 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

No plane in the sim can be real because the sim itself is not life like. For a start real planes contain real people. Real Co Pilots and real passengers. And people do random and unpredictable things. So does the atmosphere and the world. But nothing in the sim is random. It's entirely predictable because it's just code.

Well, you've just described full flight level D sims as well.  But, we do quite a bit of "studying" in them.  ;)

It's false to suggest that a desktop sim can have no validity as a study aid.  To understand what can be useful vs pointless or even negative learning requires experience in the real operation, but there are plenty of things that even desktop sims can help a pilot learn.  Instrument procedures are the easiest example.  Instrument flying IS like playing a video game; the skill involved isn't controlling the aircraft through climbs, descents, and straight and level turns; it's developing your scan and efficiently assembling the bits of information from each instrument into a cohesive whole of three dimensional situational awareness.

A scan is a perishable skill.  Using a traditional 6 pack of instruments to fly a DME arc onto a non-precision approach is a perishable skill.  These are skills that legitimately CAN be positively affected by practice in a desktop sim.

What you'll never be able to use a desktop sim to do is learn (or improve) basic aircraft handling.  In other words, the ILS in the sim DOES have value, but the landing is just entertainment.

And all of that is just fine.  I wouldn't dismiss the platform entirely as entertainment though; in knowledgeable hands, it can be a useful teaching / learning tool - for SOME things you'll do in an airplane, but certainly not all.

1 hour ago, jason74 said:

Only true study level is in commercial sims,  eg Level D flight sims

Interestingly, even in multimillion dollars level D simulators, we find ourselves making statements like "the airplane doesn't do this".

Though I agree that this "study level" is a marketing tool used sometimes loosely by some people. At the same time, very few people will really notice discrepancies and for that reason, they will believe that.

Very touchy subject and open for interpretation. 

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

It's false to suggest that a desktop sim can have no validity as a study aid.

I did not say that there is nothing valid that can be learned in the sim. My point was that the primary purpose of MSFS is entertainment. And that the purpose of a so called study level plane in a home simulator is also entertainment. I've long been of the opinion that we are actually learning to use the sim more than anything else. The primary enjoyment being the satisfaction of mastering and making the most of the technology in front of us in which regard MSFS excels. The word study implies that there is some form of necessary academic learning effort involved when there really isn't. A quick YouTube video tutorial on pretty much any plane and off you go. No theory required.

Edited January 15, 20233 yr by jarmstro

2 hours ago, adino said:

Somebody had to say it!😉

Yeah, and somebody forgot to mention P3D in that statement. Have we removed it from the history books already?

47 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Yeah, and somebody forgot to mention P3D in that statement. Have we removed it from the history books already?

I never used P3D and never will, lucky with one very good Flightsimulator and that is for me MSFS.

cheers 😉

 

6 hours ago, jason74 said:

Nothing in MSFS or XP is study level, they are just marketing scams.

Sure PMDG , Fenix and Maddog  have complex systems but they will never be study level

Only true study level is in commercial sims,  eg Level D flight sims

there is something in between that though, and you indeed forgot P3D.

I can tell you many pilots use P3D and FSLabs A320 to prepare for certain aspects of a Level D sim checkride or sim assessment. The airport which will be in use is often known previously, so it is quite common to use P3D/FSLabs to familiarize with airport/surroundings/approaches. That works best if the Aircraft does what it should in order not to get distracted by unexpected surprises. The FSLabs A320 does a great job in that regard down to small details.

I haven't come across anyone yet using something else than that though.

Edited January 15, 20233 yr by 320Driver

based on this thread i say study level is just a meaningless term we can discuss over and over again and never come

to agree with each other.  its magic.....hahaha

28 minutes ago, 320Driver said:

The airport which will be in use is often known previously, so it is quite common to use P3D/FSLabs to familiarize with airport/surroundings/approaches.

Wouldn't that require a study level airport?