Qantas flight lands at YSSY after mayday alert

[RobPol471 173]

A Qantas 737-800 flying between Auckland to Sydney suffered an engine failure and made an emergency landing at Sydney APT.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/nsw/2023/01/18/qantas-flight-issues-mayday-alert/

[fluffyflops 1,858]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/we-need-two-pilots-at-the-pointy-end-the-qantas-mayday-shows-us-why-20230118-p5cdlh.html

An interesting read. 

[Garys 209]

The only ones saying we still need two pilots in the cockpit are the folks who chose a career as  .....  yep you guessed it.. A Pilot. Keep pushing that button at 400ft for +250k a year and it will happen faster than anyone can think.

[Bob Scott 7,720]

2 hours ago, Garys said:

The only ones saying we still need two pilots in the cockpit are the folks who chose a career as  .....  yep you guessed it.. A Pilot. Keep pushing that button at 400ft for +250k a year and it will happen faster than anyone can think.

It's sorta like getting surgery and having your surgeon double as the surgical nurse...I mean, why can't the spoiled prima donna just grab his own tools off the tray like any decent mechanic?  Of course when something goes wrong, do you really want him hunting around the OR for a Satinsky clamp while you're bleeding out on the table?

Two sets of eyes and ears add a lot to your safety--sure, you could get bye with just one up-front most of the time, but the number of times one pilot catches an error on the part of the other, a missed radio call, etc is not trivial at all.

 

[Garys 209]

 

ATP Gulfstream II-III-IV-V....   See LOL..😀   I get what your saying but as passenger numbers increase, so too are the pilot deviation incidents. They are accuring far too frequently and only getting worse in nature. Even Data Comm with an automated taxi system would have prevented the near miss in New York this week. The technology exists. Its time for the change.

[Bob Scott 7,720]

38 minutes ago, Garys said:

ATP Gulfstream II-III-IV-V....   See LOL..😀   I get what your saying but as passenger numbers increase, so too are the pilot deviation incidents. They are accuring far too frequently and only getting worse in nature. Even Data Comm with an automated taxi system would have prevented the near miss in New York this week. The technology exists. Its time for the change.

So your answer to pilot deviations is to reduce the manpower on the flight deck further by replacing two pilots with a single task-saturated pilot and some more automation?  The unfolding debacle with self-driving cars is bad enough...now you want self-flying planes?  Technology isn't infallible, either--think back to the Turkish Airlines Boeing 737 that crashed short of the runway at EHAM because the radar altimeter malfunctioned and commanded the autothrottles to idle more than a mile short of the runway, putting the jet into autoland flare mode.  Two pilots still didn't catch that one in time.  More automation is not necessarily better or safer.  "Ladies and gentlemen, your pilot has apparently been incapacitated and has stopped responding to control queries.  This message is to inform you that our proprietary automated sytem is now flying the aircraft.  Remain calm, there is no cause for concern...concern...concern...concern..."

I'm a retired USAF pilot, and I have no vested interest in shilling to preserve commercial pilot jobs or compensation.  I have, however, faced the challenges of flying crew-operated complex jet aircraft in our dynamic and crowded airspace environment.  A lone pilot on the flight deck is going to be more prone to falling asleep or otherwise becoming bored/complacent, and without checks and balances or backup.  The odds of a missed or misunderstood ATC clearance go up.  One less pair of eyeballs looking for traffic means higher probability of a midair, especially with light VFR aircraft that do not have TCAS.  The odds of an accident due to spatial disorientation--a constant threat to single-seat military pilots--goes up.  The workload during a time-critical emergency is quite likely to prove beyond a single pilot's capabilities--think Sully Sullenberger and his crew losing both engines and putting an A320 into the Hudson as an example.  There was a lot more to that time-critical crisis than just flying the crippled aircraft--emergency engine failure and restart checklists, selection of a ditching site, coordination with ATC to make their intentions known and get river rescue going, coordinating with the cabin crew to prep for a near no-notice ditching, etc.  All in a couple of minutes--everything all at once.  No way one guy pulls that off with just HAL9000 at his side.  Even non-emergent contingency situations could become crises with one pilot--an example would be holding, missed approach and divert with min fuel in a rapidly deteriorating weather environment.  That second pilot is worth his weight in eggs when that kind of thing happens.

The fact that crews are imperfect and occasionally commit errors does not negate the fact that multiple crew members continuously checking each other's work prevents many more errors from occurring every hour of every day, and permits crews to handle extreme workload peaks that a single pilot cannot.

 

[Christopher Low 5,353]

I cannot see the logic (or even the necessity) to reduce the number of pilots on the flight deck. Two seems to be the best number to me as far as flight safety is concerned.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Christopher Low

[Garys 209]

For every incident you give me caused by automation I can give you 3 that were purely pilot error and thats not even counting the near misses but I dont think we need to go there. I'm actually in favour of no pilot flightdecks.

[fluffyflops 1,858]

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I cannot see the logic (or even the necessity) to reduce the number of pilots on the flight deck. Two seems to be the best number to me as far as flight safety is concerned.

cost 

[Rogen 1,087]

19 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

I mean, why can't the spoiled prima donna just grab his own tools off the tray like any decent mechanic? 

As a mechanic myself, when you're positioned elbow deep and potentially upside down in the guts of a car, truck, plane, <insert named motor vehicle> etc. getting out of position to grab a tool in probably limited space is not at all efficient or at times even easy.

And that's where I have an apprentice sharing the workload in passing the required tools and provisioning assistance and operations as I need them.

And at one time I was incapacitated by 100,000 volts of spark energy and unable to move, and that's where my assistant cut the power, so there is the safety aspect as well.

And in my other carreer as a software and support engineer, I can say software based automation is not risk free, nore is it at times even safe.

There is always a spot for two people even if only to learn the ropes so to speak.

Cheers

Edited January 20, 2023 by Rogen

[Bob Scott 7,720]

41 minutes ago, Rogen said:

There is always a spot for two people even if only to learn the ropes so to speak.

And having that second spot as a place for learning the ropes is a super-important point, too--the right seat in an airliner is the training and experiencing platform that produces experienced captains. 

The concept of a single-seat operations environment begs the important question of where the experienced pilots would come from.  You can't just assume them into existence, and they don't grow on trees!

[dmwalker 603]

What happens if that one pilot needs to pee?

[Rogen 1,087]

A bottle ???

A nappy ???

A catheter ???

Or Otto ?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Rogen

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I read another article saying the passengers felt 'left in the dark' but yes Aviate, Navigate, Communicate (to ATC). Passengers are briefed when the situation allows it. I think QANTAS is still one of the only legacy airliners that has never had a crash during the modern jet era, impeccable safety record.

[Garys 209]

1 hour ago, Matthew Kane said:

I read another article saying the passengers felt 'left in the dark' but yes Aviate, Navigate, Communicate (to ATC). Passengers are briefed when the situation allows it. I think QANTAS is still one of the only legacy airliners that has never had a crash during the modern jet era, impeccable safety record.

Except for the bankok incident which was 100% pilot error. 😇