Is Simbrief sufficient to Plan ILS SIDS & STARS

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

17 minutes ago, MikeyOnTheFlightDeck said:

I also struggle with vias on approach too and would love to know how I find out what one is used in the real world at the time of my flight 

There is no "one" approach, unless there is actually only one.  

Where you have several to choose from, you may find that airport ATISs will often times list the approaches that are in use at that time.  Keep in mind those are not the only ones that can be used, unless weather dictates otherwise, you can still request another type of approach.

In short, the answer to your question is that there can be more than one.  Alot of times, the general rule of thumb would be WX, ATC directed, direction entering from, calm wind preferential, noise abatement, aircraft equipment (potentially limiting certain approaches).

I actually tell people NOT to try and fly one that a real-world aircraft just flew.  Same way for flight planning.  The reason being is that are many-many ways to do it, and most, if not all are correct. Also, those conditions that a particular aircraft just flew in will have likely changed making your plan now incorrect, IRL or simming wise.

It's best to simulate how it 'would be done' and not how it 'was' just done.  This is where you can learn to stop "gold mining" for flight plans out of flight aware or flight radar...hehe.  Now Simbrief or other planners will likely take a lot of those routes anyways, but it starts forcing your mindset in to thinking about what actually makes sense.  That's when SIDs and STARs will start to make more sense to you.

Not sure if this makes any sense or not, I'm not the best writer.

This is a pretty good post for learning.  Kudos to the poster and all those that replied.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jeff Nielsen

[MikeyOnTheFlightDeck 189]

4 hours ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

There is no "one" approach, unless there is actually only one.  

Where you have several to choose from, you may find that airport ATISs will often times list the approaches that are in use at that time.  Keep in mind those are not the only ones that can be used, unless weather dictates otherwise, you can still request another type of approach.

In short, the answer to your question is that there can be more than one.  Alot of times, the general rule of thumb would be WX, ATC directed, direction entering from, calm wind preferential, noise abatement, aircraft equipment (potentially limiting certain approaches).

I actually tell people NOT to try and fly one that a real-world aircraft just flew.  Same way for flight planning.  The reason being is that are many-many ways to do it, and most, if not all are correct. Also, those conditions that a particular aircraft just flew in will have likely changed making your plan now incorrect, IRL or simming wise.

It's best to simulate how it 'would be done' and not how it 'was' just done.  This is where you can learn to stop "gold mining" for flight plans out of flight aware or flight radar...hehe.  Now Simbrief or other planners will likely take a lot of those routes anyways, but it starts forcing your mindset in to thinking about what actually makes sense.  That's when SIDs and STARs will start to make more sense to you.

Not sure if this makes any sense or not, I'm not the best writer.

This is a pretty good post for learning.  Kudos to the poster and all those that replied.

Very useful Jeff, thank you.

[Jazz 1,046]

6 hours ago, PDX Flyer said:

I do understand what you are saying (or at least I think I understand) and plan on experimenting on Thursday with this.  I hope you will keep the door open if I run into any difficulties on this as I am really a newbie at this flight planning stuff and am somewhat frustrated that there isn't a manual specifically directed to the newer interface in Navigraph.  One of my primary problems is that I let the software choose the main route and I seem to have problems connecting any STAR to that route.  There is always a dashed line between the two.  I am assuming I have to somehow get rid of the dashed line.  Maybe it is just as simple as entering what I have from Navigraph, then expecting and deleting a discontinuity?

Jeff has provided some good info to you but I will just tell you how I go about this.

I actually create my flight plan in Simbrief. I don't let Navigraph generate a plight plan for my Airliner IFR stuff. Simbrief normally does a very good job of creating a flight plan with appropriate SID's and STARS. Well, sometimes I have issue with the flightplans themselves but the SID's and STARS are normally spot-on.

Once the plan is generated I start up Navigraph and import the plan directly from SimBrief into Navigraph. Almost everything will just appear including the relevant charts for the SID and STAR. You will notice that on the left side that all RWY's and procedures including SID's and STARs have been selected and the charts for them are also pinned at the bottom. However, the APPROACH part is empty and needs attention. If you click there it will bring up another set of options where ALL the approaches are listed but what is important here is to recognise what it is telling you and how it is presenting it to you. The most relevant are listed at the top and it will say something like APPROACHES from (name of STAR) to (selcted runway). You may have a few selections there. There may be a couple of different ILS approaches with designations such a 'Y' and 'Z' etc, an RNAV one etc, but the top few will be the ones that are what Navigraph knows connect the STAR and the selected runway. As you look further down the list they become less relevant. Out of the approaches that are relevant all you have to do is choose the one that is suitable for your needs. Something which is on the pilot and something Navigraph shouldn't and can't do.

With regard to the dashed line you mention. Not all approaches connect directly without gap from the STAR to the approach. This is especially common in the USA from my experience. This is normally means one should expect vectors after the final fix of the STAR to the initial fix or just a LOC intercept. The nature of flight sim means you may not have ATC to do this for you and it's up to you to get from that final fix to intercept. There are plenty of ways to go about this. Point is, the dashed line is not necessarily incorrect and will appear sometimes even when eveything is absolutely correct. You will see it all the time when flying in the states but will rarely see it in Europe as in Europe ours tend to always link up completely.

I hope that was understandable and of a little help to you.

Navigraph is invaluable to me. It's rare that by the time I get to my destination the winds are still the same and I will need to change my approach plans and Navigraph allows me to do this so quickly because as soon as I tell it I want to change runways it immedaite presents me with relevant STARS and approahes and doesn't force me to sift through endless charts looking for what looks right. It just knows and presents it in a way that I can select quickly.

I can see why it may be information overload when first using it but it's actually reducing the information for you as to make it easier.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jazz

[vadriver 247]

4 hours ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

you may find that airport ATISs will often times list the approaches that are in use at that time. 

but they do mention (IRL) a change of runway is expected / planned due to .......

a TAF is the best guide one has in simulation (a metar depiction is historic)

[crimplene 631]

27 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Point is, the dashed line is not necessarily incorrect and will appear sometimes even when eveything is absolutely correct. You will see it all the time when flying in the states

This is an important point I learned only some weeks ago. The A320 MCDU quite often shows a "manual" leg followed by a "discontinuity". Until recently I thought that I have to delete the discontinuity and because this is not possible without deleting the manual leg, I did that too. Quite dumb I was. 🙂 The manual leg most of the times leads away from the runway and is neccessary for ATC to line all planes up, giving you vectors and telling you when to do the final approach. In MSFS, ATC is not bright enough, it just tells you to do your own navigation. So when I think it's a good distance from the airport I just use "Dir" to go to the first waypoint after the discontinuity.

Those manual/discontinuity legs appear in departure routes, too. The serve the same goal, afaik. You first go in a pre-defined direction and when there is room, you get directed to the next waypoint where you resume your own navigation.

I hope I got all this right and would be delighted if someone corrected me or tell me where I was imprecise.

[jarmstro 2,402]

4 hours ago, Jazz said:

I hope that was understandable and of a little help to you.

I am very grateful for your post. But it still leaves me without any understanding of how to select a VIA as you, and no one else, has mentioned it. I am referring to the VIAs we are asked to select from in the list in the FMC when you select a STAR. I suppose my initial question is what is a VIA? Cheers.

EDIT I did ask ITB the same question and he kindly replied saying that a VIA is the point at which you choose to join the approach. This left me none the wiser as I can't  see the waypoints on offer on most approach charts?

Edited February 8, 2023 by jarmstro

[Jazz 1,046]

14 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

I am very grateful for your post. But it still leaves me without any understanding of how to select a VIA as you, and no one else, has mentioned it. I am referring to the VIAs we are asked to select from in the list in the FMC when you select a STAR. I suppose my initial question is what is a VIA? Cheers.

Those are transitions and Navigraph tells you those on the left. If you click on the Icon in the top left which is an aircraft it will bring up the flight tab on the left and in there will be all the details. It will have "flight name", "Distance", "Flight Mode IFR/VFR", "Chart Mode", "Cruising Atl" and then below that you will have "Origin". Origin will have the airport ICAO code then below that the selected runway and below that you will have the "Departure" which will be pink and then to the right of the Departure you will see "Transition".

So, for example, if you are setting up the 737 CDU you would go to DEP page of the FMC, then select the runway you see in Navigraph as I just described, then select the Departure as described in Navigraph and then the VIA would be the transition that Navigraph told you for the Departure procedure. The transition is the point that is the start of the actual flight plan. So, it's from RWY (whatever) on a (whatever) departure to join flight plan VIA (whatever) transition.

It's the same for the Destinations section below the Origins section. Same principles apply for the Arrival and transitions there.

Any clearer?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jazz

[Bobsk8 12,584]

14 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

I am very grateful for your post. But it still leaves me without any understanding of how to select a VIA as you, and no one else, has mentioned it. I am referring to the VIAs we are asked to select from in the list in the FMC when you select a STAR. I suppose my initial question is what is a VIA? Cheers.

EDIT I did ask ITB the same question and he kindly replied saying that a VIA is the point at which you choose to join the approach. This left me none the wiser as I can't  see the waypoints on offer on most approach charts?

I have been using Avliasoft EFB for years. It shows all possible approaches with a Star, or Rnav, or visual, you can easily see which Via works best for the approach you are doing. Charts are all in the program no subscription required for charts. Works perfectly every time. https://www.aivlasoft.com/

 

[Jazz 1,046]

2 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I have been using Avliasoft EFB for years. It shows all possible approaches with a Star, or Rnav, or visual, you can easily see which Via works best for the approach you are doing. Charts are all in the program no subscription required for charts. Works perfectly every time. https://www.aivlasoft.com/

 

The point is that Navigraph doesn't present a load of stuff you don't need which confuses the situation and you don't need to make the determination. It tells you what is right given your routing info. Much easier for those that may be new to all this. Been a while since I used EFB but my memory is that it is no where near as user friendly as Navigraph.

[jarmstro 2,402]

14 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Any clearer?

A bit. But why doesn't SimBrief just simply tell me which via to use for the STAR it specifies? Oh well, I suppose I've managed for the last twenty years and I dare say I'll manage for the next twenty.😀

Edited February 8, 2023 by jarmstro

[Bobsk8 12,584]

1 minute ago, Jazz said:

The point is that Navigraph doesn't present a load of stuff you don't need which confuses the situation and you don't need to make the determination. It tells you what is right given your routing info. Much easier for those that may be new to all this. Been a while since I used EFB but my memory is that it is no where near as user friendly as Navigraph.

EFB makes every approach and departure as simple as can be, what is complicated by clicking on a runway and being able to select and visualize each and every approach to that runway with one mouse click??

[BrammyH 446]

9 hours ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

This is where you can learn to stop "gold mining" for flight plans out of flight aware or flight radar...hehe.  Now Simbrief or other planners will likely take a lot of those routes anyways, but it starts forcing your mindset in to thinking about what actually makes sense. 

Good lord do I feel seen.

My SIM Brief is full of real flights, flight numbers, etc. It's a hot mess in SimBrief and my head.

As an aside,  I wish there was a way to sort on flight duration.

[Jazz 1,046]

11 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

A bit. But why doesn't SimBrief just simply tell me which via to use for the STAR it specifies? Oh well, I suppose I've managed for the last twenty years and I dare say I'll manage for the next twenty.😀

Because it's limited. It can't give you such transitions because it doesn't know which approach you will be using, for example which is why Navigraph is so useful.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. (providing my screenshot shows)

In the yellow box on the left you can see I'm going from EGSS (Stansted) from RWY 22 on a NUGB1R departure VIA transition NUGBO

I'm going to LFBD (Bordeaux) and landing on RWY23 on a LMG1L arrival VIA Transition LMG and using the ILS RWY 23 Approach VIA the VAGN2 Transition.

It really does tell you everything you need to know and I can't think of any way it can make it easier for us.

[Jazz 1,046]

15 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

EFB makes every approach and departure as simple as can be, what is complicated by clicking on a runway and being able to select and visualize each and every approach to that runway with one mouse click??

But does it eliminate the non relevant ones? I don't remember it doing this. I just remember it showing you every possibility. Navigraph will simplify everything in this regard.

[Bobsk8 12,584]

Just now, Jazz said:

But does it eliminate the non relevant ones? I don't remember it doing this. I just remember it showing you every possibility. Navigraph will simplify everything in this regard.

You select the approach,once you determine the runway,and then all the VIA's  are show in a list for that approach. You click on one, and on the moving map it shows where that Via connects from where you are to the approach,if you don't  like that one, click on the next one etc. etc. Takes me about 15 seconds to figure out the entire approach, and everything connects perfectly, and I don't have to screw around juggling charts. Same goes for SIDs, once you find active runway at the airport you are leaving.