Something to Consider When Buying an EV

[martin-w 3,235]

14 minutes ago, 3Green said:

You still need oil and gas to create all the plastics in EV's

 

Plastic is made from oil. But wait.... HEMP!!! Hemp is awesome for car body panels and interior panels.  😏

And don't get any ideas you naughty people, you cant smoke it. it won't make you feel all weird and happy and giggly.  😁

[3Green 80]

56 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Hemp is awesome   😁

haha

[Ron Attwood 3,465]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:22 AM, martin-w said:

 

MG EV - 30K and 550 KM range. A lot better than a Tesla for affordability. 

Which EV do you have Martin? 😉

Edited March 22, 2023 by n4gix
Removed excessive overquoting! Just don't do this, p;lease.

[Biggles2010 343]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

MG EV - 30K and 550 KM range. A lot better than a Tesla for affordability. 

Real life users don't get anywhere near the claimed figures for most EVs.

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not really. Tesla are about to hit 2 million cars sold in 2023. In 2021 global EV car sales were 6,5 million unites. Much higher now in 2023. 1 in7 cars now globally is electric.

A lot of buyers are taken in by misleading mileage claims and the false belief that they are saving the planet by adding another car to it. Even EVs have to be manufactured.  On your own figures, 6 cars in every 7 are not electric, so the perfect electric world will need a lot more manufacturing, which is not without environmental costs.

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not true. BEV fires are 25 per 100,000 sales. 1,528 fires per 100,000 in terms of petrol cars.

EVs are very new. You need to compare with other cars of the same age.

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not true, they aren't causing storage problems... yet. And EV batteries go on to a second life for grid and home storage. And the EU regulations coming into force regarding recycling are strict.

Quote:  "At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day."

Cells may be reusable, but there are very few recycling facilities worldwide.

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not exactly. One third of all lithium mining is in Australia. And the environmental damage caused by the fossil fuel industry and car industry is many orders of magnitude greater. And in terms of both lithium and cobalt, its not EV owners that are to blame. all of us are to blame, because lithium and cobalt is used in numerous products that we all own. And of course cobalt is used in fossil fuel refining.

So two thirds of the mining is not in Australia. Irelevant anyway, as it all causes environmental damage and uses vast quantities of water, which itself is a problem. It is also a matter of quantities. The orders of magnitude you refer to only apply because there are, so far, very few EVs. As they increase the effects also increase.

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Another common myth.

You appear unaware of how fragile our power supplies are.

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not true. Off shore wind has been remarkably successful around the world, especially in the UK. I'm presuming you are from the US, in which case 10% of your electricity is from wind and growing rapidly. Can hit 28% in the UK.

Offshore wind has been successful when the wind blows. In the recent cold spell in the UK it coincided with light winds. Not at all  unusual. It was a fine line to maintain supplies. Coal fired power stations were called to standby to back up supplies. This is not just a UK problem.

[dmwalker 603]

Solid state batteries seem to be the alternative choice of two major car manufacturers:

"In August 2020, Toyota started road testing of their prototype vehicle, LQ Concept, equipped with a solid-state battery In September 2021, Toyota unveiled its strategy on battery development and supply, in which solid-state battery is to be adopted first in their hybrid electric vehicles to utilize its characteristics And, Honda has set their plan schedule to start operation of demonstration line for the production of all-solid-state batteries in Spring 2024".

Edited March 21, 2023 by dmwalker

[birdguy 3,943]

I think EVs are fine for commuting and for areas like Europe and Eastern North America where towns are not more than 10 or 20 miles apart and there is a lot of infrastructure.

But in Western North America, excluding the coastal states, where you can drive 100 miles between towns they are not yet practical.  But hybrids are.

When I went to get my wife out of the hospital in Las Cruces, 180 miles away, my Prius gave me close to 50 miles to the gallon driving the speed limit of 70 miles an hour for most of the 360 mile round trip. 

Noel

[martin-w 3,235]

1 hour ago, Ron Attwood said:

Which EV do you have Martin? 😉

 

I don't have a car at all.   😏   Had to sell my car when I moved to Guernsey. When I do buy my next car it will be an EV. 

But of course, the car I do or don't drive is absolutely nothing to do with the facts, the truth, rather than the multitude of EV myths that abound. 

[Ron Attwood 3,465]

20 minutes ago, martin-w said:

the facts, the truth

Ah, those old chestnuts. 😁

[martin-w 3,235]

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

Real life users don't get anywhere near the claimed figures for most EVs.

 

Depends on the range estimates you are talking about. WLPT is usually over the top. Others aren't. Hyundai are usually spot on so I'm told. 

 

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

A lot of buyers are taken in by misleading mileage claims and the false belief that they are saving the planet by adding another car to it. Even EVs have to be manufactured.  On your own figures, 6 cars in every 7 are not electric, so the perfect electric world will need a lot more manufacturing, which is not without environmental costs.

 

No, most aren't "taken in" Most EV owners would not go back to ICE. Some do of course, most don't. As for manufacturing and "needing a lot more" where do you think ICE cars come from? They have to be manufactured too. Internal combustion engines are very complex, often containing 200 plus precision made parts. Not to mention a gear box containing multiple precision made parts.  That big chunk of metal you call a petrol engine along with the rest of an ICE car doesn't arrive out of thin air. 

 

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

EVs are very new. You need to compare with other cars of the same age.

 

2008 was the first Tesla. 15 years ago. That's not "very new". EV fire risk doesn't increase with age. EV fire risk goes down with age.

https://carboncopy.info/austria-ev-batteries-risk-of-fire-lessens-with-age/

 

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

So two thirds of the mining is not in Australia. Irelevant anyway, as it all causes environmental damage and uses vast quantities of water, which itself is a problem.

 

And one third is not in a remote areas where nobody is aware of environmental damage. Lithium is the third most common element in the universe. Its not in short supply, in fact there are large deposits in the US. Lithium is used for all manner of products not just EV's. Lithium mining in some parts of the world does indeed have environmental consequences but if you look at the environmental damage caused by one ICE car and compare it to the environmental damage caused by one BEV, the BEV causes less. 

 

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

You appear unaware of how fragile our power supplies are.

 

As I said, regarding the US power grid you will have to do your own research. I gave you a link to an article by the head of the UK National Grid, who in no uncertain terms spells out that with factors like the "smart Grid" and V2G its not an issue.

I'm in Guernsey now of course, not the UK. Here we have a cable that brings renewable energy from France via Jersey, to our shores. There is talk of a second cable. In addition, an offshore wind farm to serve the Channel islands is in the consultation phase. 

 

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

Offshore wind has been successful when the wind blows. In the recent cold spell in the UK it coincided with light winds. Not at all  unusual. It was a fine line to maintain supplies. Coal fired power stations were called to standby to back up supplies.

 

Which particular period are you referring too? Its an intermittent power source, we know that, hence the investment in grid scale batteries and other tech. But in 2022 total wind power was 20.9 gigawatts. Which was a record amount of wind power. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64179918

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,235]

 

1 minute ago, 3Green said:

EV's will work great in 15 minute cities, but if i were you, I wouldn't bother saving for a EV.  EV's cost too much, and after 10-15 years, you'll be replacing the batteries at another huge cost. 

 

I live in Guernsey. a small island. Its only 6 miles long by 3 miles wide. I don't need range, if I tried to drive the full range of any EV I'd be with the fish in the ocean. 😁

EV batteries last longer than you think. Warranted for 10 years, but they usually last way, way longer than that. There are Tesla's around on the original battery, doing 200,000 miles plus. Used for Taxi's.  What's nice, is that its not uncommon to only lose 10% of capacity.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-mileage-battery-capacity

 

[martin-w 3,235]

11 minutes ago, 3Green said:

How long will it take charliearon to delete this post.  Are you on the CCP's pay role by any chance?

 

Given your second sentence, not long I wouldn't have thought. 

[Biggles2010 343]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

But of course, the car I do or don't drive is absolutely nothing to do with the facts, the truth, rather than the multitude of EV myths that abound. 

The myths have usually originated from real life experiences. There is often a big difference between, carefully selected, published 'facts' and the truth. Marketing hype falls in this category.

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

I gave you a link to an article by the head of the UK National Grid, who in no uncertain terms spells out that with factors like the "smart Grid" and V2G its not an issue.

He is living in a dream world. Only two weeks ago we were on the verge of blackouts in the UK. As I mentioned, 3 coal fired power stations had to be brought to standby. When there is high air pressure over Europe all wind power is affected.Our new nuclear units are decades away. Backup batteries are not going to solve the problem. A smart grid helps efficient distribution, but does not provide additional power. Demand is increasing constantly, only held back in the short term by massive price increases.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Biggles2010

[dmwalker 603]

8 hours ago, Biggles2010 said:

The future for electric anything does not look as bright as some would have us believe.

Just to be clear, are you against the whole idea of battery powered vehicles or just those using batteries, like the Li-ion type, which cause serious environmental damage? Are you for or against the continued used of fossil fuel powered vehicles? If you are against all of these, what other possible alternatives can you suggest?

[3Green 80]

Are EV's safe to charge in your garage?  What happens if all ferry's ban these cars?  Kinda reminds me of the B787 battery problem.

Norwegian Ferry Company Bans Electrified Vehicles From Being Transported on Its Ships

Massive cargo ship carrying electric cars sinks in Atlantic Ocean after fire

Connecticut Transit electric bus fire under investigation

An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris

Video captures electric car burst into flames while charging outside home

EV fires are tough to fight and pose new hazards. Inside the race to get responders ready.

Tesla Fires videos

I guess nothing is really safe, but once these batteries catch fire, they're sure hard to put out.

RJ

Edited March 21, 2023 by 3Green

[Biggles2010 343]

1 hour ago, dmwalker said:

Just to be clear, are you against the whole idea of battery powered vehicles or just those using batteries, like the Li-ion type, which cause serious environmental damage? Are you for or against the continued used of fossil fuel powered vehicles? If you are against all of these, what other possible alternatives can you suggest?

I have no problem with people choosing to buy electric cars of any kind and they are well suited to local journeys. I disagree with these cars being held up as the answer to all our future transport problems, treating them as though they do not consume electricity or have any environmental impact in their production. Remember, the idea is to replace and scrap many millions of perfectly serviceable vehicles. For most poorer families an EV is an unaffordable alternative. As the numbers of EVs increase so does the demand for electricity, which has to be generated.by some means. This is conveniently glossed over.

I have never liked diesel cars, but modern small high performance petrol engines, with turbos, are remarkably efficient with low emissions. Personally I think hybrid cars should have been encouraged as an interim solution until we have much better batteries and more stable sources of power generation, with the required capacity..