Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
shermank

That old question again : could you land a commercial jet..

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, Doering said:

Nice scenario Mr. Moderator!

I liked it! 😀


Charlie Aron

Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and the purchase of a new system.  Running a Chromebook for now! :cool:

                                     

 

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, dmwalker said:

In the event that both pilots on an overnight flight from New York to London, for example, are incapacitated approximately one quarter of the way there, and a flight simmer volunteers to fly the aircraft, would the authorities allow the flight to continue according to the active flight plan and land in daylight in London or would they try to guide the flight back to New York and attempt a night landing?

Without a doubt no , they’d want you  on the ground as quickly and safely as possible, they certainly wouldn’t want  it let lose on the North Atlantic track structure that’s for sure. 
 

Trust me, being 7 miles over the ocean at night 1000 miles from the nearest runway is not for the faint hearted, it still gives me the shivers sometimes when I stop and think about it.

You’d want to “land at the nearest suitable airfield “ as the manuals calmly phrase it ,to describe a situation where it’s hit the fan big time. In addition to all the other reasons you’d still have lots of gas to play with that way.

Because if the bean counters have had their way on the flight planning you’d be landing in Europe with the bare minimum of fuel reserves and that’s not for the feint hearted either !

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

Share this post


Link to post
43 minutes ago, jon b said:

You’d want to “land at the nearest suitable airfield

One quarter of the way would be somewhere south of Newfoundland so the choices would be Halifax, St. John's or Gander?


Dugald Walker

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, charliearon said:

That both cockpit pilots had lunch together and had "the fish". They both get horrible food poisoning and need to be dragged out of the cockpit.

That's why the cockpit crew isn't going to have the same food to reduce the possibility of both falling ill.

  • Upvote 1

Microsoft Flight Simulator | PMDG 737 for MSFS | Fenix A320 | www.united-virtual.com | www.virtual-aal.com | Ryzen 9 7950X3D | Kingston Fury Renegade 32 GB | RTX 3090 MSI Suprim X | Windows 11 Pro | HP Reverb G2 VR HMD

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Nixoq said:

That's why the cockpit crew isn't going to have the same food to reduce the possibility of both falling ill.

 

  • Like 1

Charlie Aron

Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and the purchase of a new system.  Running a Chromebook for now! :cool:

                                     

 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, charliearon said:

request a military escort to an appropriate military airbase with a nice long runway.

Wouldn't that be rather bumpy and hard on the gear? 😟

Oh, you meant loNg runway... Never mind!


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556


     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, n4gix said:

Wouldn't that be rather bumpy and hard on the gear? 😟

Oh, you meant long runway... Never mind!

Thanks, Bill!  It's fixed! :blink:

Reminds me of the older carriers....teak deck covered with a layer of asphalt.

  • Upvote 1

Charlie Aron

Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and the purchase of a new system.  Running a Chromebook for now! :cool:

                                     

 

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, dmwalker said:

One quarter of the way would be somewhere south of Newfoundland so the choices would be Halifax, St. John's or Gander?

Don’t ask me, I’m incapacitated remember 🙂….so the question is where would YOU go and why ? 🤔
You’re in command now, like it or not , we’re all counting on you !

Edited by jon b

787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

Share this post


Link to post

Incapacitated, in need of medical attention, obviously land ASAP, Halifax, or any of those others would be fine.

As an avid simmer I'd feel confident getting the plane on the ground safely, but of course weather and any other technical issues i.e. smoke in the cockpit would be a factor. Also a Boeing would be more familiar to me than an Airbus.

I'd first try and get all the outside lights on, squawk 7700, and probably go to a 500 level, like 32500 ft instead of 33000 (330), start heading roughly in the direction of the nearest airport. Of course also try and establish radio contact, even to other aircraft in the vicinity to get help.

My gut feeling is that most simmers, also general aviation simmers, and of course also people with real world general aviation flying experience would do an ok job landing, as long as the weather was ok, and no serious technical faults. Extreme situations though like Swissair 111 (Halifax), even professional pilots won't always make the right decisions. But professional pilots are always preparing for such events, training, recurrent training. In a situation like Swissair 111, or say United 232, no doubt professionals who deal with such potentials on a regular basis, plus being out there in the real world and not on a PC, will perform better than the average simmer.

Maybe on a different scale, I think pretty much any kid who can drive a car in a video game could probably drive in a parking lot or out in the Black Rock Desert, but experience with blown out tires, deer suddenly emerging from the forest at night, snow, ice, crazy drivers etc. comes in the real world over time, would never be quite the same experience when simulated on a computer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

@Antipodeslonghaul

Very Good indeed !

The important one you’ve got there is to TX 7700 that’ll set the alarms off in the ATCC and you’ll be the focus of their attention and they’ll “make a hole in the sky “ for you as they put it, and get everyone else out of your way. So no urgent need to go to a 500ft level in a radar environment but a good idea if oceanic. Ideally when diverting oceanic you’d descend below FL285 to a 500ft level and then fly direct, but I wouldn’t worry about anything like that in this situation that’s advanced procedural stuff, just keep it simple the rules go out the window.


787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

Share this post


Link to post

I would have complete confidence in being able to land in one piece. As an aircraft mechanic, I have in depth knowledge of aircraft systems on multiple airframes for which I have worked on over the years, as well as being an instrument rated PPL, with several hundred hours of experience in actual flying, ATC communication etc - though I no longer actively fly.

A few weeks ago, I went to CAE for recurrent engine run and taxi training on their Level D Dassault Falcon 900 sim. Most of the training focused on ground operations from a mechanic’s perspective. Various engine failure scenarios such as hot starts, hung starts, engine fires etc. We did a lot of taxi-related scenarios, including nose wheel steering failure, taxiing in icy conditions, brake failure etc.

After the required training scenarios were complete, we had an hour of sim time left, so the instructor asked if I wanted to fly it. We were operating at the simulated JFK airport. I did a takeoff from 13L, hand flew to 3500 feet, cruised down the Long Island shoreline a few miles before turning around to shoot a visual approach to 31L. I put it down right on the touchdown markers at a descent rate of 65 FPM.

I have done the same thing in conjunction with engine run training on Level D sims for the Gulfstream IV and CRJ-200. Being thoroughly familiar all the systems certainly helps, as well as having r/w flying experience. The final approach in the CRJ was a bit unnerving because that aircraft flies in a decidedly nose-down attitude until the flare, but knowing that, I was able to touchdown reasonably smoothly.

Now it would have been a very different thing if pilot incapacitation had been combined with a major problem like engine failure or flap or gear failure, 

Edited by JRBarrett

Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

Incapacitated, in need of medical attention, obviously land ASAP, Halifax, or any of those others would be fine.

Closest is St. John's but its runways are too short (8502 and 7005).

Next closest is Gander with two long runways (10200 and 8900)

Farthest, maybe four times farther than Gander, is Halifax with one long and one short runway (10500 and 7700)

I would choose Gander because I may not know which runway I'll have to use.


Dugald Walker

Share this post


Link to post

From the current real world notams …
Gander is currently operating with reduced RFF ( rescue & fire fighting cover)  category 5 is available with 30 minutes notice, category 7 is available with 3 hours notice, on a normal flight you’d need a minimum of category 7. Would this have any influence in your choice of going to Gander ?

Hopefully people are finding this of interest in demonstrating the sorts of considerations and thought processes we go through in diversions and emergencies, I don’t mean to be a nuisance and if I am being tell me and I’ll stop with the interjections.I just thought it might be interesting for the guys who do the serious simming to follow this scenario through to a conclusion. 


787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

Share this post


Link to post
51 minutes ago, jon b said:

Would this have any influence in your choice of going to Gander ?

Can I first ask, for a fully loaded B777-300 1hr 30 mins into a flight from KJFK to EGLL, what might the minimum required landing distance be?

I found the RFF categories. So the B777-300 would require Category 9:

https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/rescue-and-fire-fighting-services

Edited by dmwalker

Dugald Walker

Share this post


Link to post

Maybe one of the 777 rated guys would know I'm not overly familiar with it despite my licence actually saying I'm rated on it, JFK/LHR isn't that far so you'd probably be below max landing weight so as a rough guess somewhere around 8000ft with max auto brake and full reverse. Strangely, I've found the 787 takes longer to land than the 747 at it's typical landing weight , I'm putting it down to the amount of wheels therefore brakes the 747 has, despite being much heavier. I guess the 777 has 6 brakes on each   main gear so  would be between the 747 and 787.

If we're still running the pilot incap scenario would you be influenced by the RFF being under 9 ??

I guess in this scenario for real someone on the ground would be making the decisions like that for you they wouldn't expect you to act as an experienced aircraft commander, but  an interesting forum discussion.


787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
×
×
  • Create New...