That old question again : could you land a commercial jet..

[dmwalker 603]

48 minutes ago, jon b said:

If we're still running the pilot incap scenario would you be influenced by the RFF being under 9 ??

Yes, since Category 5 is for aircraft only a third of the length of the 777-300. My concern about Halifax is that if there is a 40 knot crosswind on the 10500ft runway, I wouldn't be able to use the 7700ft runway when the minimum required is 8000ft. On the other hand, the approximately half hour flying time to Halifax might bring the landing weight down far enough to allow the 7700ft runway to be used. And I suppose landing into a 40 knot headwind would bring my minimum landing distance down, too.

Also, if I make a perfect touchdown, Halifax has lots of hotel capacity and, if I make a less than perfect touchdown, Halifax has lots of hospital capacity.

So probably Halifax it is. Still, I must be missing several other considerations, such as weather etc

Edited March 26, 2023 by dmwalker

[jon b 2,047]

Great stuff !

In an incap scenario they'd be making all these decisions for you on the ground anyway and just telling you what to do.

However, for the exercise... you'd have to weigh up , what's the biggest danger to you ?, staying in the air  any longer than necessary with no qualified and possibly dying pilots, or landing at an airport with less RFF than you officially need?  Remember as captain you have complete authority in an emergency, it's up to you, if you want to land somewhere below your RFF you can, you can put it down " off airport" on a road or field if needed.

At the same time would you want to be putting all the other passengers at serious risk to get a single person to hospital? That will all be up to you as commander, but what ever your decision you have to be able to justify it. For example what good is an airport 150nm away with the required RFF going to be if you're on fire and the aircraft wont survive the flight and there's an airport with very little RFF right off your nose.

In any emergency scenario there'll be many ways to skin that particular cat and different pilots may chose different answers to problems, there's seldom a black and white , wrong or right, as long as the decision is sensible , thought out . and can be justified, and above all safe.

Going back to the pilot incap with a simmer in charge scenario, one of the first things we'll do when managing an emergency or any scenario is to establish the time factor, have you got a big T,meaning lots of time, or a little t that requires rapid action.

If you have the automatics in, the aircraft is under control and there's still transatlantic fuel on board then I'd say you have a big T, plenty of time to sort things out. Yes the pilots maybe seriously ill and in need of urgent medical attention however with an  unqualified person flying the bigger risk would be rushing things and loosing the whole aircraft, so once the guys on the ground established things were under a reasonable level of control and you were at least familiar with the flight deck and autopilot they start planning.

Things I'd be thinking about if I was on the ground would be pointing you towards the longest runway , in the best weather , that has an ILS for an autoland. Get the autobrakes set and let the aircraft do all the work under no circumstances do you want to take the autopilot out at any stage. Again the best suitable runway may not be certified for autoland, it doesn't matter any ILS will do in these circumstances if that's the best fit.

It's good that you've thought about losing weight by flying to a further away airport, so along those lines ....do you dump fuel? if so how much to you want to retain in the tanks? If you're above max landing weight do you need to dump fuel to get below MLW before attempting to land in such a scenario ? ( no !)

 

[dmwalker 603]

4 minutes ago, jon b said:

pilots maybe seriously ill and in need of urgent medical attention however with an  unqualified person flying the bigger risk would be rushing things and loosing the whole aircraft,

I would follow Spock's advice that "The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few".

9 minutes ago, jon b said:

longest runway , in the best weather , that has an ILS for an autoland.

I wouldn't disengage the autopilot but I would want to get the aircraft low and slow well ahead of time

If Atlantic Canada is all fogbound and the next nearest candidate is a military airfield would i get clearance to land there?

[jon b 2,047]

18 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

If Atlantic Canada is all fogbound and the next nearest candidate is a military airfield would i get clearance to land there?

Unless it’s groom lake, I’m sure you would yes.

An old PPL friend of mine tells a story of when he got lost in his 152 in lowering clouds  the RAF gave him a talkdown into RAF finningley which was an active nuclear bomber base at the time.

However.. an ex RAF colleague told me that when he was participating in the red flag exercises out of Nellis he was briefed that no matter what level of emergency he might experience over the ranges he was not to try and land at groom lake or he would be stopped with force ! 
Anywhere else in the world I think you’d be fine.

[jcomm 5,925]

I really don't know for sure, but I can tell you they - airline pilots, some of them seasoned - can't land a glider properly 🤣

At least in two occasions a well known Grob 103 around where I fly was broken due to porpoising on landing... They're (airline pilots) probably so accustomed to shake their sticks on the lazy/laggy tubeliners that they try the same technique in gliders and... Cadabum!

Edited March 27, 2023 by jcomm

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

Funny timing this thread…

20 years of flight simming here, I just happen to be working in Atlanta for a few months.  It just so happens that Delta has a great museum at KATL and they have a level D 737-200 sim that they allow the public to rent out for an hour ($475).  Once in a lifetime chance I booked myself a spot.

A retired Delta pilot who flew that plane for real was my guide and copilot for the session.  I told him my story, that I had simmed a lot but my only experience as an actual pilot was 2 discovery flights in a Cessna.  I’m guessing to “see what he was dealing with” he set me up on a short flight from KATL to Birmingham.  Weather was set to clear on takeoff but full thunderstorm with a 15 knot crosswind at the destination.

It was pretty amazing how familiar it felt to start the engines and taxi.  The tiller was a bit more sensitive and you could really feel the whole thing sway if you pushed too hard or braked too suddenly (my passengers would not have been happy).  But through taxi and takeoff I felt really good and it went well…

Then came the weather…

This was an old aircraft - no glass cockpit and we weren’t flying with autopilot.  The Delta Captain said he actually hand flew a lot in his day .. or maybe that was just to test me (then again, what’s the point of just letting the sim do it all when you paid $475 😉 ).  It took 100% of my effort just to keep the plane following the flight director.  I also didn’t know how to read the localizer indicator on that older instrument which all ended up With me way off the runway when I came out of the clouds.  Missed approach fail.

We tried again at 6 miles out..  this time I had no excuse … and no Bueno.  The feel of the thing is totally different then a desktop sim when the weather is brought to bear.

After this however, the Captain took pity on me and returned us to clear skies.  I did three approaches, straight into KATL 8R, Then KDCA Potomac North approach, and finally the Expressway approach to KLGA 31…  and i managed to land all of em.  2 landings were a bit harder than my passengers would have Iiked (flaring feels different than i expected) but i was told It was well within normal landing tolerance.

My takeaway is that under clear conditions, an experienced summer could possibly do it. You will have no problem with the switches and controls - so if you have a glass cockpit and use autopilot to minimums you’ld have a better shot. But you will be totally unprepared for the feel … so those last 200’ are going to be a prayer.  The other thing is that it is definitely a 2 person job.  In my inexperienced ‘heart in the throat’ feeling it was all I could do just to fly it.  Just looking up to turn the course dial could get me off the flight path.  You would need another summer who you could delegate at the very least.

All that said, that was an absolutely incredible experience and gave me a whole new perspective for my next pc sim session!

 

[The Flight Level 2,113]

@VFXSimmer That sounds like you had a blast! Really emphasizes the role and necessity of the co-pilot in the aircraft (especially in the older aircraft without significant automation) to stay ahead and land the aircraft as smoothly as possible.

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

1 hour ago, Doering said:

@VFXSimmer That sounds like you had a blast! Really emphasizes the role and necessity of the co-pilot in the aircraft (especially in the older aircraft without significant automation) to stay ahead and land the aircraft as smoothly as possible.

Thanks Doering, it really was.  I’m here in Atlanta for a few more months and am considering giving it one more go before I leave.  The Delta pilot said he would set me up with an engine out.. as if it wasn’t hard enough 😉

And absolutely a 2 person job!

 

 

[shermank 170]

Applause, applause to everyone who has responded to this thread…fascinating reads and various opinions prove again the value of our forums, for serious and casual simmers alike.

 

sherm

[paulyg123 135]

Well I never flew a plane in real life.  I have 1000’s of Boeing takeoffs and landings on a really good home set up.   I have done many sessions in a full motion LevelD sim on 737, 747 767, and 777.  I start out each 2 hour session simple and then do difficult approaches like JFK 13L or LGA expressway 31.  Or ILS approach in really bad weather. 200 ft ceilings, 1/4 mile visibility and 15 kit crosswind   I pretty much stuck every landing pretty good.  The only time I crashed is when the dopey instructor gave me severe wind sheer as I crossed the threshold.  So yes, give me a Boeing and I have a high chance to land it.  Oh, all my approaches were hand flown,  no autothrottles or autopilot.  At $500 per hour, I’m hand flying this puppy.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by paulyg123